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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 00:53
I'm surprised it took that long for pedobear to pop up.
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 00:50
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

 Just for the record I have one daughter raped by another teenager, another possibly molested or raped after being drugged (she doesn't remember what happened but tested positive for the date rape drug)  and now a niece raped and murdered.
Wow, of course I knew about your niece, but I didn't know the rest of your family was so unlucky. I'll just concede the argument because while I think you're being emotional, you have good reasons to be emotional! So I'll let it be.
Quote
And as for your signature quote College BB at Michigan was ruined becasue of the Fab 5 and the coach there.  Not all college BB is the same.  Well maybe wherever John Callipari coaches. Wink

I don't actually care about basketball, I just thought it was a nice quote that reinforces my distaste for televised sports. :P


Edited by Henry Plainview - April 11 2010 at 00:50
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Points: 6795 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 00:10
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Abuse of any innocent, by any person, in any setting, is wrong and should be dealt with harshly.  I'm pro death penalty so don't think I'm kidding. 

At the same time, lawyers and those who hate the Church are loving this, and using it to perpetuate their own self interest, which is disgusting in its own way.  For every foul act committed by a priest, the Catholic church has 100,000 little  acts of compassion and selflessness, given from nuns and priests, church members, to each other, enriching each others spiritual lives and daily lives.  Much more good than bad if you look at the net result.   

For those really interested in protecting children and killing the human predators in society, I'm with you.  For those interested in simply sliming the entire faith community for the actions of a few, you repulse me. 
Amen.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 23:50
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


Listen, it's not the religion that encourages or covers up child abuse. Of that we're clear. My main problem if you check my first post has always been Ratzinger 1.- probably involved in the cover up and none even thinking of any consequences for the guy...

2.- If Ratzinger was American and lived here, they would've already named this whole scandal Vaticangate or Ratzingergate or Childgate. Ja.

I don't accuse the religion of pedophilia. I accuse important members of the church that direct it of covering it up.
  1. Probably is not enough to judge any person and you are already asking consequences...I know you are a thoinking person but you are already asking for a witch hunt without evidence, what can you expect froom the press or even religious sects like the Westboro Baptist Church or hate sites as .Jesus is Savior  who are having a party?
  2. Yes, that's the problem with USA, the press accuses without certitude and never ask excuses if they are wrong (something usually happens).

As long as press puts names to scandals without being sure without any reasonable doubt, the institutions will have to protect their members against unfair trials....The press causes this problem.

What's the chance of a priest receiving a fair trial if the press already calls it Vaticangate?
 
Of course if you are afamous football player and your name is OJ Simpson, you will be declared innocent despite there was no doubt of the crime.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 11 2010 at 00:52
            
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 23:44
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Kinda funny really, if you think about it...Here in America, some Muslims destroyed our buildings and murdered thousands of people, and yet you get criticized severely for even insinuating that the Islamic religion is a cover for violent acts. 


I wouldn't criticize you really...

Listen, it's not the religion that encourages or covers up child abuse. Of that we're clear. My main problem if you check my first post has always been Ratzinger probably involved in the cover up and none even thinking of any consequences for the guy...

If Ratzinger was American and lived here, they would've already named this whole scandal Vaticangate or Ratzingergate or Childgate. Ja.

I don't accuse the religion of pedophilia. I accuse important members of the church that direct it of covering it up.

But like many people have said, they may have legitimate reasons for "covering it up", I can't really accuse them of it unless I knew what their intentions are/were in doing so.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 23:41
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Kinda funny really, if you think about it...Here in America, some Muslims destroyed our buildings and murdered thousands of people, and yet you get criticized severely for even insinuating that the Islamic religion is a cover for violent acts. 


I wouldn't criticize you really...

Listen, it's not the religion that encourages or covers up child abuse. Of that we're clear. My main problem if you check my first post has always been Ratzinger probably involved in the cover up and none even thinking of any consequences for the guy...

If Ratzinger was American and lived here, they would've already named this whole scandal Vaticangate or Ratzingergate or Childgate. Ja.

I don't accuse the religion of pedophilia. I accuse important members of the church that direct it of covering it up.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 19:22
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
It does appear as if the cover up of abuse in the Catholic Church has been institutional.  And members of the church trusted priests with their children you wouldn't trust a soldier in the same way with your child.
 
The Church covered this abuse not the religion. 
 
Institutional?
 
With 98% of priests falsly accused and never publuished their innocense...Don't you believe the Church has to be extremely careful?
 
Now covered?
  1. Have you ever known about the 240 convicted pastors of a Church that represents only 0.7% of the people in USA?
  2. Don't you believe that kids should trust in their parents more than in priests and parents are the first pedophiles?
  3. Don't you believe that hundreds of times more pedophile teachers (who you trust your kids) is not covering?
  4. Don't you believe hat some Mormon sects that admit 65 years men marry with multiple 15 years girls, in a form of unofficial poligamy is real covering?
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    Perhaps the most famous polygamist communities are Colorado City, Arizona, just south of the Utah border, and its neighboring town of Hildale, Utah.  These two towns, formerly known as Short Creek, were raided by the National Guard in the 1950s in what is still referred to by local residents as "The Raid," and many men here were sent to prison.  Images of families being torn apart resulted in a public relations disaster for the state of Utah and no major arrests of "poligs" have occurred since then.  There was a made-for-TV movie about this incident many years ago called, "Child Bride of Short Creek" which starred a very young Helen Hunt, long before she was Mad About You.  By the way, after the men were released from prison several years later, they returned to Colorado City and quietly resumed their ultra-orthodox beliefs, including the practice of polygamy.  I once asked a local National Park ranger if there were still polygamists there and she avoided a direct response to my question by saying, "If you drive through Colorado City, you'll see a lot of big houses."  

     

    If you drive through Colorado City, as I did a few years ago, you'll also see a lot of women wearing long dresses and bonnets and men with long-sleeved shirts and hats, dressed just as their ancestors did a hundred years ago.  I've tried to photograph them, but they're quite suspicious of outsiders, especially I guess, outsiders like me toting big cameras.  Yes, polygamy is alive and well in Utah, and estimates are that between 30,000 and 75,000 people live in polygamist families in Utah today (mostly in rural areas), representing about 1 to 2 percent of the state's population.  From what I've seen, I don't dispute those estimates. http://www.delsjourney.com/close-ups/us/travels_sw/mormons_and_polygamy.htm

    This is institutional poligamy and pedophilia.

    Please, the Catholic Church has it's sins, but people see the straw in the eye of their enemy bit not the log in front of their eyes.

    Iván
            
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Points: 32581 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 18:23
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Logic:

People from nations do evil things.

Therefore, belonging to a nation is evil.

Geek
What?  You didn't get the memo.

 Look religion should never be a cover for doing evil deeds.  Far too often it is and I'm not going to point fingers.


And I do not support anyone who uses religion to hide evil ambitions (ever heard of the Pharisees?).

My point is that if, for example, a US soldier molests a child, and his commanding officer covers him, I will not discredit the entire US military.

Kinda funny really, if you think about it...

Here in America, some Muslims destroyed our buildings and murdered thousands of people, and yet you get criticized severely for even insinuating that the Islamic religion is a cover for violent acts.  Ermm
 
It does appear as if the cover up of abuse in the Catholic Church has been institutional.  And members of the church trusted priests with their children you wouldn't trust a soldier in the same way with your child.
 
The Church covered this abuse not the religion. 


I won't presume to answer for Catholics since I am not one of them and there are several here, but your point is well taken.
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 18:19
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Logic:

People from nations do evil things.

Therefore, belonging to a nation is evil.

Geek
What?  You didn't get the memo.

 Look religion should never be a cover for doing evil deeds.  Far too often it is and I'm not going to point fingers.


And I do not support anyone who uses religion to hide evil ambitions (ever heard of the Pharisees?).

My point is that if, for example, a US soldier molests a child, and his commanding officer covers him, I will not discredit the entire US military.

Kinda funny really, if you think about it...

Here in America, some Muslims destroyed our buildings and murdered thousands of people, and yet you get criticized severely for even insinuating that the Islamic religion is a cover for violent acts.  Ermm
 
It does appear as if the cover up of abuse in the Catholic Church has been institutional.  And members of the church trusted priests with their children you wouldn't trust a soldier in the same way with your child.
 
The Church covered this abuse not the religion. 
Help me I'm falling!
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Points: 32581 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 18:13
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I'm looking back at my post and it seems a bit harsh, so I apologize.  I was attempting to inject into a little humor .into an unfunny subject.  But you're on the money and as you have outlined you beliefs I can't see a less than honorable person.


And your entrenched political opinions masquerading around as humor have done nothing but two things:

1. Made me feel. (Angry or LOL)

and

2. Made me think.  (Geek)

Whereas Tull could only do one, you've done both.  Wink

You're a good man, Slarty Brown!  Big smile
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 18:07
I'm looking back at my post and it seems a bit harsh, so I apologize.  I was attempting to inject into a little humor .into an unfunny subject.  But you're on the money and as you have outlined you beliefs I can't see a less than honorable person.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 32581 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 17:54
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Logic:

People from nations do evil things.

Therefore, belonging to a nation is evil.

Geek
What?  You didn't get the memo.

 Look religion should never be a cover for doing evil deeds.  Far too often it is and I'm not going to point fingers.


And I do not support anyone who uses religion to hide evil ambitions (ever heard of the Pharisees?).

My point is that if, for example, a US soldier molests a child, and his commanding officer covers him, I will not discredit the entire US military.

Kinda funny really, if you think about it...

Here in America, some Muslims destroyed our buildings and murdered thousands of people, and yet you get criticized severely for even insinuating that the Islamic religion is a cover for violent acts.  Ermm
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 17:48
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Logic:

People from nations do evil things.

Therefore, belonging to a nation is evil.

Geek
What?  You didn't get the memo.

Look religion should never be a cover for doing evil deeds.  Far too often it is and I'm not going to point fingers.


Edited by Slartibartfast - April 10 2010 at 17:48
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 32581 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 17:40
Logic:

People from nations do evil things.

Therefore, belonging to a nation is evil.

Geek
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 16:11
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
[quote]
  • Priestly celibacy is not the issue - married men are more likely to abuse children than unmarried
  • Most child abuse takes place within the home.
  • All religious groups have pedophile scandals, and the Catholics (while the largest religious group) are at the bottom of the list statistically.
  • Child abuse is prevalent in all areas of society: schools, youth organizations, sports, etc.
  • Statistically, of all the professions, Christian clergy are least likely to offend. Doctors, Farmers and Teachers are the professions most likely to abuse children--not clergy.
  • Among clergy offenders Catholic priests are least likely to offend.
  • Catholic cases of pedophilia make more headlines because of anti Catholic prejudice and because the Catholic Church is bigger and more lucractive to sue.
    •  
     
    But press attacks Cathollic Church, because the Pope is in a different country and are the biggest Christian Church in the world.
     
    Iván
     
    Child abuse as you say goes on in all walks of life - Education Medical and of course most often in the family. 
     
    What is the issue with the Catholic Church is not that abuse occurs but that it has been hidden - covered up systematically.  Instead of reporting abusers to the police which is what happens in the other cases you mention.  The Church just moved abusers to somewhere else so they could carry on their abusive behaviour.  Its probably 'least likely to offend' because noone reports anybody.^
     
    The Press smell blood yes.  But the behaviour of the Catholic Church has been so apalling that it deserves this scrutiny.  The Church needs to catch up with the 21st C.
     
    Help me I'm falling!
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    Points: 6898     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 15:47
    I am against anything that uses religion as a facade.

     I just invented a religion that requires me to walk down the street with a loaded AK 47. There!

     These guys make the KKK look like Saints.
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    Points: 19557     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 15:38
    Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

    All of that is true. But the pedophiles in church must be burned anyway. Investigated and then, if convicted, burned. The same if the main priest in Rome covered it up.

    The same for people in all walks of life of course, with or without Roman hat.
     
    I agree with you, if a priest rapes...hang him.
     
    But I don't understand the hatred against Catholic Church,
     
    In the report I posted you can see that 
     
    1. 251 "Bible" Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)
    2. 147 Baptist Ministers 
    3. 140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers 

    HAVE BEEN CONVICTED, and they represent a much smaller percentage of Catholic Priests accused, and even ten times higher than the Catholic priests convicted, but the press ignores this.

    Just imagine that the FundamentalistEvangelical represent only 1.2 % of the Christians ibn USA, Baptists represent 16% of Christians and Anglicans only 1.7% while Catholics represent a large 24% oif Christians in USA and they have a very high of CONVICTED pastors.

    Another site says:
     
    Quote
  • Priestly celibacy is not the issue - married men are more likely to abuse children than unmarried
  • Most child abuse takes place within the home.
  • All religious groups have pedophile scandals, and the Catholics (while the largest religious group) are at the bottom of the list statistically.
  • Child abuse is prevalent in all areas of society: schools, youth organizations, sports, etc.
  • Statistically, of all the professions, Christian clergy are least likely to offend. Doctors, Farmers and Teachers are the professions most likely to abuse children--not clergy.
  • Among clergy offenders Catholic priests are least likely to offend.
  • Catholic cases of pedophilia make more headlines because of anti Catholic prejudice and because the Catholic Church is bigger and more lucractive to sue.
    •  
     
    But press attacks Cathollic Church, because the Pope is in a different country and are the biggest Christian Church in the world.
     
    Iván


    Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 10 2010 at 15:44
                
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    Points: 6898     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 12:57
    Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

    When I said i would take a box seat to this thread then I' sorry ILIED!!! ( just as Arnie would say! ).

    Children are the hope of the future or , what we have left of it. They are precious. This hiding behind the facade of religion ha worn too thin on me. Jesus Christ is a composite, Any fool can see that. The biggest case of the Emporers New Clothes. My dear old dad agreed with me. He allowed me to discover that for myself. The way Joe The Rat is running the Vatican makes a mockery out of mankind itself. And if any of the self-ritcheous editors want to hide this then be my guest. in the military I dealt with chaplians ( and authotity ) who were very open minded and unbiased if that's any coparison to a MUSIC wbsite who emloys THOUGHT police.

    I have a good friend with whom I share breakfast with occasionally who is the age of 89 years and some of the plans for these "priests" are unprintable here on "Progarchives Geoorge Orwell General Di
    scussions.com". 

    We spent the Easter holiday with my twin nieces and nephew and my sister said that she would not let them anywhere near any church of any faith. The kids play sports, swimming, skating, hockey etc. and my nephew even wants to be a pilot.  Take your divinity and shove it. Children are pecious.



     
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    Points: 6898     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 12:54
    When I said i would take a box seat to this thread then I' sorry ILIED!!! ( just as Arnie would say! ).

    Children are the hope of the future or , what we have left of it. They are precious. This hiding behind the facade of religion ha worn too thin on me. Jesus Christ is a composite, Any fool can see that. The biggest case of the Emporers New Clothes. My dear old dad agreed with me. He allowed me to discover that for myself. The way Joe The Rat is running the Vatican makes a mockery out of mankind itself. And if any of the self-ritcheous editors want to hide this then be my guest. in the military I dealt with chaplians ( and authotity ) who were very open minded and unbiased if that's any coparison to a MUSIC wbsite who emloys THOUGHT police.

    i have a good friend with whom I share breakfast with occasionally who is the age of 89 years and some of the plans for these "priests" are unprintable here on "Progarchives Geoorge Orwell General Di
    scussions.com". 
    We spent the Easter holiday with my twin nieces and nephew and my sister said that she would not let them anywhere near any church of any faith. The kids play sports, swimming, skating, hockey and my nephew even wants to be a pilot.  Take your divinity and shove it. Really. Has lost any meaning for me. 
    .


     








    Edited by Vibrationbaby - April 10 2010 at 13:35
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    Points: 17493     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 11:56
    All of that is true. But the pedophiles in church must be burned anyway. Investigated and then, if convicted, burned. The same if the main priest in Rome covered it up.

    The same for people in all walks of life of course, with or without Roman hat.
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