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Topic ClosedSteven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
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riversyd View Drop Down
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Points: 23 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 16:36
Originally posted by CryoftheCarrots CryoftheCarrots wrote:

16 pages of a totally pointless argument over who is righter than who !!!!!
The interview in question is f**king years old !!! Who gives a toss what they thought back then. Both artists whom I love and respect unconditionally have moved on. Steven and Roine BOTH play on Steve Hacketts new Genesis Revisited 2 cd. Move on people.
 
The sanest message on the thread....
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Points: 30251 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 01:10
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ in what way though [have TFK changed]?

That addition of Reingold was one element that pushed them in a jazzier direction. They also became more lush in their instrumentation. Take a listen to Unfold the Future vs. the earlier stuff. This was right after Transatlantic too and I think you can hear influence from them. It's not a drastic change or anything like KC going from Red to Discipline (of course, those are several years apart, and at a time when attitudes in the mainstream of music were changing a lot), but it's still evident.

I think it's harder to say how something like f**king Tool has changed. They got a bit slicker and more drawn out. Why are they "more progressive" exactly? It's just metal. Wilson probably had the dumb, subconscious line of thought that "it's depressing music and thus more in line with the zeitgeist of the 90's/00's". I know he's changed his views over the last few years though so that's cool, and I like his music. I've always considered PT and TFK to be legit prog, whereas Tool and TMV are the sort of "alternative" pseudo prog, and not actually any more original.
 
Thanks for that. I actually think TMV are the epitomy of a modern prog band (heavy and very fast at times) although as a bit of an oldie I find them almost unlistenableLOL
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Points: 674 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2012 at 19:43
16 pages of a totally pointless argument over who is righter than who !!!!!
The interview in question is f**king years old !!! Who gives a toss what they thought back then. Both artists whom I love and respect unconditionally have moved on. Steven and Roine BOTH play on Steve Hacketts new Genesis Revisited 2 cd. Move on people.
"There is a lot in this world to be tense and intense about"

MJK
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2012 at 16:50
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ in what way though [have TFK changed]?

That addition of Reingold was one element that pushed them in a jazzier direction. They also became more lush in their instrumentation. Take a listen to Unfold the Future vs. the earlier stuff. This was right after Transatlantic too and I think you can hear influence from them. It's not a drastic change or anything like KC going from Red to Discipline (of course, those are several years apart, and at a time when attitudes in the mainstream of music were changing a lot), but it's still evident.

I think it's harder to say how something like f**king Tool has changed. They got a bit slicker and more drawn out. Why are they "more progressive" exactly? It's just metal. Wilson probably had the dumb, subconscious line of thought that "it's depressing music and thus more in line with the zeitgeist of the 90's/00's". I know he's changed his views over the last few years though so that's cool, and I like his music. I've always considered PT and TFK to be legit prog, whereas Tool and TMV are the sort of "alternative" pseudo prog, and not actually any more original.
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Points: 30251 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2012 at 00:55
Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

Wow. PT's latest DVD 'sucked'? I guess mileage really does vary. I thought it was the best live show I've ever heard from them. 

Why anyone would sell PT albums, I'd never know. 

But then, I've never listened to the Flower Kings, and don't find them progressive or innovative in the least.
I've never got rid of anything deliberately just in case I might like them later in life and that includes my collection of Flower Kings CD's and DVD's. (but if anyone wants to take them off my hands for more than I paid for them then...Wink)
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Points: 1029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2012 at 18:18
Wow. PT's latest DVD 'sucked'? I guess mileage really does vary. I thought it was the best live show I've ever heard from them. 

Why anyone would sell PT albums, I'd never know. 

But then, I've never listened to the Flower Kings, and don't find them progressive or innovative in the least.
Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Points: 952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2012 at 05:33
Originally posted by jokrs2 jokrs2 wrote:

Porcupine's music had no uplifting feeling for me, and just seemed the same song after song leaving "this" listener depressed. I gave away PT's "latest live DVD" because it sucked.
In oder not to get depressed I sold my PT CDs on ebay years ago, and got more than I paid for originally. Made me feel good again! Wink
Don't Bore Us, Get To The Chorus
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Points: 9 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2012 at 17:46
Yes, and I bowled a 244 against Randy Hansen when his wife worked with mine. He could play circles around anything Wilson's ever done if he was just goofing around. Alan White(Yes Drummer) lives next to an ex soccer team mate of mine. I have owned everything from Tangerine Dream (Zeit & Alpha Centauri), before they went over to Virgin Records with the likes of Gong, Hatfield & The North, Mike Oldfield to some of the newer stuff like Arena, Spocks Beard. Being a synth player and musician since the age of 5 (46 yrs), I can honestly tell you that the Flower Kings and Stolt write music that is much more complex and Porcupine Tree probably couldn't play it for more than just 1 reason(Tomas Bodin). The Flower Kings are in a sub grouping anyway. Lyrics like Genesis (Suppers Ready) and The Flower Kings lyrics would put them in with the likes of Spocks Beard, Neal Morse as Christian Prog. imho
Porcupine's music had no uplifting feeling for me, and just seemed the same song after song leaving "this" listener depressed. I gave away PT's "latest live DVD" because it sucked.
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 21:31
Oh.. and that doesn't mean you can't have favorites... it just means you should have a wider spectrum (great album by Cobham) of things in your collection.
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 21:28
Cool  Just want to add a few cents in here.  First, full disclosure... I am a musician... ok... I'm a drummer. 

After decades of having unjustifiable bias towards a very small subset of music.  I was, like a large population of the drumming community, a huge fan of Rush and Neal Peart in particular.  I was the first one in any conversation to talk about how much better Peart was than anybody who ever lived.  I was totally sure of my opinion... and anyone who differed from me back then... was... well....  stupid.

Since that time, I have matured musically.  I have expanded my musical horizons.  I have looked and listened in directions that I thought were filled with talentless bums..  Looking back...  as a fan of music... it was ME that was the talentless bum.

Today... I still have great joy in listening to the latest drop by Rush... and I am still blown away by Neal's drumming.  Its great.  There is no doubt about that.  But I have also expanded my horizons to better understand what Ringo did and how it worked... and Charlie Watts... and Mike Portnoy...  and Dave Weckl,   and Steve Smith (both Journey and Vital Information).  I have since become a huge fan of both Buddy Rich, and Nick D Virgillio... and Chad Wackerman... and so on and so forth... 

The bottom line is, that when you limit yourself to a single style or genre of music... You are stunting your growth as a musician.  I look at drummers like Steve Smith, and Vinnie Colaiuta,, and have seen them jump from Rock to Jazz to ... gasp... even country...  and do all incredibly well...

When I see posts like the ones that started this thread... I feel sad...  People are closing off their minds to the incredible variety of music that exists... 

To that end, I play with both a praise and worship team, and a local town band (check us out if you're ever in New Carlisle Indiana).  I actually enjoy playing old standards... and sometimes... even giving them a new feel.    I also like marches, and classical pieces adapted for "quasi" jazz bands like our town band. 

I ask, no, I implore all of you who want to take sides on this one... to get out and listen to everything you can.  As a fan of prog... I know you listen deeper than most... and can appreciate the subtle things the musicians lend to their work.  Learn to appreciate all of it.  Roine is awesome.  Steven is awesome... But for different reasons.  Just because the awesomeness originates from different places, doesn't mean it isn't there.... because as a real musician  ... ok... as a drummer...  I can see how both artists matter... now... and 10 years down the road... 

Peace out everyone...  Not everything in life has to be a contest... Sometimes we can just sit back and enjoy...  And we should.

Tom
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Points: 1029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 19:18
^Wow, someone really doesn't like Steven Wilson. I never thought I'd see the day. 

I prefer his music to TFK, and don't care if it's 'prog' or not. 
Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Points: 6 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 16:16
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by wbiphoto wbiphoto wrote:


BTW, Opeth's latest 'Heritage' is about as retro as any album in recent memory; right down to the Blackmore riffs ripped from 'Gates of Babylon'.  In fact, large portions of 'Heritage' sound like Rainbow and I consider the latest Opeth effort a tribute to Blackmore(whether Åkerfeldt will own up to it or not is another thing). Of course, there's the 70s Black Sabbath influence oozing out at every turn.

Mikael Akerfeldt has actually admitted (on the Heritage making-of DVD) that some stuff on the album is a tribute of sorts to Ronnie James Dio. But he's never admitted to being progressive by definition, and has also commented that much of his influences for Heritage came from obscure 70s prog bands.


Well, there ya go! My ears weren't lying to me when I heard the obvious Rainbow influence and you've just confirmed it.

Whether or not Åkerfeldt will SAY that his work is "progressive", or that he's trying to be "progressive", is irrelevant. His music is considered such, otherwise it wouldn't be featured on this site or the many others around the net that attach the "progressive" label to Opeth's music. Robert Fripp at one point hated the label "prog" and wanted no part of it, yet, he's one of the most well-known and influential prog artists. Same applies to Åkerfeldt in the realm of death/extreme/tech metal etc.

My objective is not to pick apart Åkerfeldt or to measure Opeth's progressiveness, but to highlight Steve Wilson's EXTREME ARROGANCE. For SW to say that the FK and Transatlantic, and acts like them, will bring on the "death of progressive music" is unconscionable. Specially when he's regurgitating themes and riffs that have existed for decades , and in the case of Opeth's latest, helping other acts do the same.

What SW said is defenseless.


Edited by wbiphoto - September 06 2012 at 16:18
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 14:49
Originally posted by wbiphoto wbiphoto wrote:


BTW, Opeth's latest 'Heritage' is about as retro as any album in recent memory; right down to the Blackmore riffs ripped from 'Gates of Babylon'.  In fact, large portions of 'Heritage' sound like Rainbow and I consider the latest Opeth effort a tribute to Blackmore(whether Åkerfeldt will own up to it or not is another thing). Of course, there's the 70s Black Sabbath influence oozing out at every turn.



Mikael Akerfeldt has actually admitted (on the Heritage making-of DVD) that some stuff on the album is a tribute of sorts to Ronnie James Dio. But he's never admitted to being progressive by definition, and has also commented that much of his influences for Heritage came from obscure 70s prog bands.
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Points: 7887 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 12:26


Mr. Wilson!!!
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Points: 6 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 12:20
It's astonishing to read what Steven Wilson had to say. Of all people making music today he dares to call out the FK and Transatlantic and questions their "progresiveness"? For SW to call out the aforementioned bands and to say that they are recycling old ideas is preposterous; when SW himself is copying and pasting old and tired riffs, from Opeth and other "dark" metal bands, into his own music.

Steven Wilson makes "pop art rock"; no more, no less. He's very good at it and has certainly learned studio techniques to yield some excellent recordings; but so have many others. He doesn't have a monopoly on recording prowess.

SW thinks he's much more important than he actually is. He fashions himself as a cross between Robert Fripp and David Bowie; or maybe Fripp and McCartney/Lennon. I dunno which combo he feels he's closest to, but he's on some trip that won't let him see reality.

Most of SW's work is boring, cookie cutter "heavy metal" riffing with the occassional spacey interlude with some Brit Pop thrown in to ensure that the mainstream gets his attention. His formula is probably one of THE MOST transparent in the so-called "progressive music" world. In fact, when I first listened to 'In Absentia' the first thing I asked myself was: how on earth can this music be classified as "progressive" when it sounds like POP?

Steven: stop taking yourself so seriously. You're a musician with little virtuosity or harmonic inventiveness but with LOTS of pop production and marketing savvy. Your skillset is not a bad thing, really. You've allowed many new/younger fans to become curious about REAL prog and many have explored the more adventurous side of the genre. For that, you must be commended.

But stop the false pretenses and respect the virtuosos of the genre. You're sounding like a child.

[edit]
BTW, Opeth's latest 'Heritage' is about as retro as any album in recent memory; right down to the Blackmore riffs ripped from 'Gates of Babylon'.  In fact, large portions of 'Heritage' sound like Rainbow and I consider the latest Opeth effort a tribute to Blackmore(whether Åkerfeldt will own up to it or not is another thing). Of course, there's the 70s Black Sabbath influence oozing out at every turn.

If Steven Wilson was such a purist and against bands that go back in order to move forward, then why did he MIX Opeth's Heritage?

Ah, Steven Wilson, words do come back to bite us, don't they?


Edited by wbiphoto - September 06 2012 at 14:18
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Points: 30251 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2012 at 14:06
^ in what way though?
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2012 at 01:38
Certainly The Flower Kings have evolved; Jonas Reingold's addition to the band had an enormous impact on their sound. Their later albums Adam & Eve and Paradox Hotel are different from their older albums, as well as their new one.
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Points: 30251 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2012 at 01:22
^ As I've pointed out before there is no problem if you understand and define 'progressive music' in the same way that Steven understands and defines it. In my opinion The Flower Kings have added very little to progressive music and no one could answer my question 'in what ways have TFK evolved since the 90's'. They have done well in reflecting seventies symphonic prog using modern recording techniques but I hear little in the way of music evolution. BUT thats by the by. The problem for me is that Steven put himself on a pedestal in deciding to be both judge and jury on what constitutes 'progressive rock music'. He simply should not have done that and has been justifiably berated for it (even though I sort of agree with his commentsSmile)
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Points: 59 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2012 at 14:49

As much as I've admired Steven Wilson through his work with Porcupine Tree, I'm utterly shocked by his statement. He claims that the Flower Kings and Transatlantic are the death of progressive music, yet the only bands SW actually listens to include dark or death-related lyrics. Not sure how that remark came out of Steven's mouth LOL 
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Points: 33 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2012 at 12:47
For those who understand french read this interview:
http://www.amarokprog.net/articles_205_467.html
I think Roine himself forgot the whole thing. And Steven shows nowadays his love towards into remixing King Crimson, Jethro Tull and ELP.
I think this discussion is from another time.
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