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sleeper 
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 Posted: December 02 2011 at 10:28 |
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I think with Petrov he's going backwards.I know the front facing exhaust system that Renault used this year was a blind alley in development, it was as good as it was going to get straight out of the box and had far less potential than a more conventional exhaust so they lost a lot of ground to everybody else, but it seems like he got worse as the year went on. Senna definitely proved to be the best of their three drivers this year, despite being throwen in at the deep end.
At the moment Kibica has more of a chance to get in at Ferrari than Rosberg does, but the end of next year will see a lot of movement with the drivers.
Ricciardo's good, he outpaced Liuzzi on a regular basis at HRT.
I'm going to contradict you on Di Resta, James. Because they often found themselves around 10th place in qualy, they found the best way was to split their startegies, with Paul usually ending up on the really long run or having to start on the harder tyres. It worked well for him in Singapor but since then Sutil has found himself on the better strategy at each race, though he's definitely stepped up his game second half of the season, but looked a little wobbly early on.
I wonder if Michael will know when the best time to retire is?
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JJLehto
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Posted: December 02 2011 at 06:06 |
Don't forget that race Schumi almost won, but it started drying up. That race where we all were surprised we know felt bad he couldn't pull it out. How the times change. 2012 is the end of his contract and even if it is a success, I can see it being his last. The comeback has been made, he's done about as well as you really can, 43 seems old enough  Michael can hang it up head held high and enjoy the unimaginable load of money he's accumulated. Yeah, Ricciardo was on HRT aka back marker capital! Also it was half a year, no judgment from me yet. Everyone seemed pretty high on him so hopefully he can prove himself in the near future.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: December 02 2011 at 00:04 |
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Yep. Nico has had a pretty good season overall. I think he had a 3rd earlier in the season too.
I'm also not comparing him to Schumacher here, as he's 43 and quite obviously slower. I'm looking at Rosberg therefore from a different angle. He's had his bad races, obviously but he's been fairly consistent and his free practices have been pretty decent too. Qualifying hasn't been bad either. It seems Mercedes' race pace isn't that great though. I think they have to run a higher fuel load. Not sure. I know that Schumacher had to stop at the side of the track after he'd crossed the line due to low fuel (Button's done it a few times too), so fuel could well be an issue.
I think next year will be Schumacher's last, unless he somehow pulls out a miracle. So expect a new driver there in 2013. Sutil? I think so. I can see Sutil at Mercedes definitely. Maybe they'll sign him up early as a back up just in case Schumacher is terrible next season and so they can replace him mid-season? Who knows.
Of course, Nico may move but I think he's just signed a new contract, so he should be there for a while.
Quite obviously all the drivers have talent, otherwise they wouldn't racing. They all have to pass strict rules. They have to be able to remove themselves from the car within a certain time, their neck has to be able to sustain varying g-forces and plus there's a lot of other stuff too. Many of these drivers have also come through GP2. Some have been champions and others have won races at that level.
So no question they're talented. It's just F1 is that much of a challenge and the car they're in also makes a lot of difference. I think things are more equal in lower formula in terms of constructors.
I still think it's a shame some of the fringe drivers cannot get a drive. The lesser teams cannot afford to hire them and end up getting drivers like Chandok.
People seem to rate Ricciardo but it's too early to tell for me yet. He needs a whole season or a better drive, I think.
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JJLehto
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Posted: December 01 2011 at 23:15 |
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Yeah, I was thinking while obviously they'd drop the old guy over Petrov, Heidfeld did actually perform better.
6 point finishes in 11 races, while Petrov managed 8 in 19. He ended up 3 points behind Petrov despite missing 8 races. Clearly he was superior during their time as teammates. I do believe Renault wasn't as good as expected as well, though Vitaly did underachieve but he's also young, I'll give him a pass.
Toro Rosso just isn't very good, though the car seems to have improved as both drivers scored a lot later on. Alguersuari seems quicker. Really, I think they all have talent. Time will sift em out, in the mean time...an established driver should be given a chance, Nico! I used to think he sucked too, but he's matured as a driver.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: December 01 2011 at 22:57 |
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I forgot about Perez. He's also done pretty well. It's a tough choice between him and (in Paul di Resta's voice) Kobiyoshi.
Petrov has been a disappointment. Obviously Heidfeld and Senna have not
had full seasons but I think both have done better than him. Although
Heidfeld has also made some real clangers. Senna is probably the best
of the 3 but we need to see him for a whole season in a competitive car.
This is Petrov's second season now I think he actually was better last
year with Kubica alongside him. Maybe the car was better last year?
I'm not really sure.
Di Resta has done well and I'm sure he's a talent but he disappointed me
a bit. Sutil upped his game though in the second half of the season. I
think we'll see more from Di Resta next year. More top 10 finishes
anyhow.
I'm still also unsure about his tactics. He tends to go for a lot of 3
stops compared to Sutil who goes for 2 stops and Sutil often ends up
finishing higher. I also often see Di Resta going backwards, rather
than forwards. I'm trying to think of an overtaking manoeuvre he's made
but cannot think of one. Whilst I can remember Sutil making some.
So I'm not convinced about him yet.
As I said, Kovaleinen has performed well in a car that's just not very
good. He's got more experience, of course, from his days in a faster
car but I think he's done remarkably well at times to get that car in
the places it's finished.
I can see Caterham being more competitive next year. Their GP2 cars are
doing pretty well, so I gather, so in time they'll get to be a more
mid-table, maybe even top 10 team. Not sure how long that'll take, mind
you.
Maybe it's just me but both Toro Rosso drivers have been pretty
unremarkable all season. I'm just not that excited about either of
them.
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JJLehto
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Posted: December 01 2011 at 19:56 |
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Hey James and I agree on something! As I said in my other rambling post, I was impressed with Button's drive this year and absolutely thought it was stronger than his title drive. He even had that "moxy" that drive I gave him flak for never showing. Where has this Jenson been!?
The only drive more impressive was Alonso's and like him or not have to admit what he did with that Ferrari was something else. Still think he would've grabbed another win at Monaco. How on Earth those tires were going to last, (and if they did how did he expect to keep pace or not slip up?) were beyond me. Not a knock on Button but we know how insane it is to pass there and Alonso is no pushover. If those rubbers gave up the ghost that would've been a W for Alonso.
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JJLehto
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Posted: December 01 2011 at 19:49 |
Yeah real surprise you never mentioned that point James, not 90 times at all  I didn't rank em in skill, just ran down the finishing order and some thoughts. This is a great field, and with a lot of mid pack teams. Exciting down below! Wow Kovalainen, completely forgot about him. What happened to that guy? OH, that's right...stuck on Lotus. I'm still unsure where exactly RBR was. Webber underachieved that badly? Vettel overachieved that much? IMO probably a bit of both. Hamilton must be the real disappointment of the season. Again, it was a pretty good season and in a way he was on pace with Button. Just was inconsistent. I don't see it happening, but in fantasy land I'd love to see Rosberg take Massa's seat. Been around a while now, proven to be solid and consistent, it'd be cool to see him get a promotion. In terms of experience and skill he's the only real one out there. The next in terms of "earning it" has to be Sutil in my book. Then there are the young guns: Petrov, Kam, di Resta and Perez all have shown potential IMO.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: December 01 2011 at 14:55 |
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It's good to see Kovaleinen in your list. As I said before, he's outperformed the car this year. It'd be fantastic to see him with a better drive next year.
My list:
Button
Sutil
Kovaleinen
Rosberg
Vettel
Yes yes, Vettel is 5th. Put him in a worse car and he won't be as good. I'm basing my decision on the car as well and Vettel obviously had an advantage over almost everyone else here.
Button for me has definitely been the best. He's proved his doubters wrong and is the first person to ever do better than Hamilton in the same team. I personally think this years drive was better than his championship winning one.
Undoubtedly Vettel has had an amazing season and that shows with the records he's broken. However, the good car helped. Obviously Webber was supposedly in an even car but somehow I think his car was not that even at all.
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sleeper
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Posted: December 01 2011 at 14:36 |
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I gave out my top 5 drivers of the season on another site (Vettel, Button, Alonso, Kovalainen, Rosberg in that order) and realised that 5th place was a realy difficult decision, so many drivers have had a real up and down year, doing well but making too many mistakes or too many off weekends.
Despite the fact that this is the best grid F1 has had since at least the 80's and maybe even the 60's, a lot of drivers underperformed this year.
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JJLehto
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Posted: December 01 2011 at 06:15 |
 sleeper wrote:
Big news, Kimi has just signed to race for Lotus/Renault next year. I dont know where that came from and I now have no idea who will be in the second car there next year (Petrov, Senna or Grosjean) but it means we have 6 champions on the grid now. |
Wow! Crazy stuff, will be great to see Kimi again. Guess now the fun begins, seeing how everything shakes down! Also revel in the season that was, I enjoyed it. The lack of title fight obviously isn't as exciting as recent years but there was some good racing, year after year of aerodynamic changes and various rules...finally hit on some things that yielded better racing results. Now that it's over just taking a step back to analyze Vettel: Wow, what can you say? 19 races, 18 finishes (all top 4), 17 podiums, and 11 wins. 15 poles. A Grand Chelem, which only Schumi has managed one in recent times, and a win at Monaco. Still doubtful he would've he would've made it to the end on those ancient tires but hey...the result is what it is. What a year. Button: I always try to be fair including eating crow if needed, and I will fully admit Button impressed me this year. I still stand by his title being a weak one and never really seemed like a "champion" driver but this year I saw it. That drive I just never felt.  Webber: Almost forgotten about, he is the new Rubens I almost felt like it was a bad year, that's how far behind Vettel he was! Of course this is not so and while he only got 1 win, 18 of his 19 races were top 5s. Very solid, consistent season. Alonso: Considering this was the 150th year of Italy pretty sad Ferrari had an off year. Thought Alonso raced damn well given that, and was pretty much on pace with Webber (1 point behind, both had 10 podiums and win) On Red Bull or McLaren he would've grabbed #2 overall and stolen a few wins from Vettel without doubt. Hami: What happened bloke? Expectations on this guy are so high this feels like a bad year when it really wasn't. Did have his...."incidents" and was clearly outpaced by Button but it was a good year, looks like he is human after all. Oh Felipe....yet again the unquestionable 6th of the top 6. Maybe unfair given the off pace Ferrari, goes to show the skill of Alonso. Rosberg is again the best of the rest, he's really developed into a solid, consistent driver. Schumi is a mere mortal, while his car isn't top notch he's been, at best, even with his team mate. Still never thought I'd see the day when I'm pulling for him to win and upset he couldn't do it! Decent year from Sutil. Petrov had to live with a Renault that clearly didn't live up to expectation. My boy Kam started off great but seemed to fade a bit as Toro Rosso came on over the second half. Finally, farewell Rubens! I'll miss ya. Here's to 2012 chaps 
Edited by JJLehto - December 01 2011 at 06:16
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sleeper
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Posted: November 29 2011 at 11:41 |
James wrote:
I'm presuming it's Petrov that's off but I could be wrong.
And yes, a rookie every year at a lowly team is a bit silly. Also, Pic maybe a good driver be he's never won a Formula 3 Championship. There's lots of other drivers out there who have and would do a better job than he would.
Maybe he'll surprise us all but I cannot really see him doing any better than D'Ambrosio.
Oh and Andy, that BBC article about Kubica seemed to think he may be back for next season but may only miss pre-season. If this is the case (which I think is unlikely) then surely he'd be in a Lotus/Renault? Unless he signs somewhere else beforehand.
Edit: actually, it seems Petrov maybe staying.
So where will Senna go?
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The team say Kubica will miss the start of next season (and seem to be implying a good chunk of it as well) but his manager is saying he could be back for Melbourne. There are certainly some driver out there who would do a better job than Pic, but you have to ask, unless there on a Red Bull driver development scheme, why would you want to race for someone like Virgin/Marussia?
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: November 29 2011 at 10:53 |
KoS wrote:
obligatory |
I think he's had a sense of humour transplant: 
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: November 29 2011 at 10:47 |
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I'm presuming it's Petrov that's off but I could be wrong.
And yes, a rookie every year at a lowly team is a bit silly. Also, Pic maybe a good driver be he's never won a Formula 3 Championship. There's lots of other drivers out there who have and would do a better job than he would.
Maybe he'll surprise us all but I cannot really see him doing any better than D'Ambrosio.
Oh and Andy, that BBC article about Kubica seemed to think he may be back for next season but may only miss pre-season. If this is the case (which I think is unlikely) then surely he'd be in a Lotus/Renault? Unless he signs somewhere else beforehand.
Edit: actually, it seems Petrov maybe staying.
So where will Senna go?
Edited by James - November 29 2011 at 10:58
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KoS
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Posted: November 29 2011 at 10:21 |
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sleeper
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Posted: November 29 2011 at 04:44 |
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Big news, Kimi has just signed to race for Lotus/Renault next year. I dont know where that came from and I now have no idea who will be in the second car there next year (Petrov, Senna or Grosjean) but it means we have 6 champions on the grid now.
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sleeper
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Posted: November 28 2011 at 12:33 |
James wrote:
Sutil in a Williams? That's actually going backwards!
Hulkenberg in a Force India though is great.
But Maldonando is just average. I don't care if he's bringing money in, he's just not very good!
Any idea whether Gary Paffett or one of the other reserve drivers may get a drive?
Oh and I forgot to say that Morrussia have signed a 21 year old Charles Pic and replaced D'Ambrosio. A bit random but I guess they don't have the money to bring in anyone with more experience. Glock has signed a new contract, apparently.
And as I'm sure you'll know already, Patrick Head has stepped down from Williams in terms of F1.
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Pic's a very decent driver from a very wealthy family. He'll be no better or worse than D'Ambrosio or Di Grassi but I cant see the point in running a rookie every year and then throwing him away. Williams might be going backwards, but unles he wants to go to HRT he doesnt have much choice, everybody else is full up. Sadley Paffet's chance went when Prodrive couldnt get on the grid in 08.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: November 28 2011 at 12:02 |
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Sutil in a Williams? That's actually going backwards!
Hulkenberg in a Force India though is great.
But Maldonando is just average. I don't care if he's bringing money in, he's just not very good!
Any idea whether Gary Paffett or one of the other reserve drivers may get a drive?
Oh and I forgot to say that Morrussia have signed a 21 year old Charles Pic and replaced D'Ambrosio. A bit random but I guess they don't have the money to bring in anyone with more experience. Glock has signed a new contract, apparently.
And as I'm sure you'll know already, Patrick Head has stepped down from Williams in terms of F1.
Edited by James - November 28 2011 at 12:10
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sleeper
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Posted: November 28 2011 at 10:11 |
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^You should have seen him with the stick on mustache at the start of the BBC coverage!
James, Hulkenburg will almsot certainly be racing for Force India next year, probably teamed with Di Resta. Given that it now seems the deal between Kimi and Williams has fallen through at the eleventh hour, I reckon Sutil and Senna are going to be fighting it out for the lead driver role there. Maldonado will almost certainly stay as he brings a lot of money from Venezuala (I've heard figures of £29mil in sponsorship from PDVSA).
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JJLehto
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Posted: November 27 2011 at 21:07 |
If so it was absolutely a send down from the big guy at top, if left to Vettel you do know he woulda lapped Webber if possible as he should. Besides his skill, I like Vettel as a personality and love his fire. It was what drove me up a wall with Kimi...maybe just his cool nature but I never felt like he was really into it. Like, racing is fun, and winning, and being a race car driver but was he really dedicated? Can't question that with Vettel, or Schumi. Still would love to see Kimi back of course!
Edited by JJLehto - November 27 2011 at 21:07
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: November 27 2011 at 20:48 |
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Anything is possible.
Actually, I'm inclined to agree with you.
Hamilton, Di Resta and Senna also had gearbox issues. I just think maybe it wasn't as big an issue as they were making it out to be.
He was still doing fastest laps and extended the lead over Alonso and Button even with the dodgy gearbox.
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The Motorsport Thread 2011
