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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: August 18 2010 at 01:00 |
Pangaea wrote:
Don't tell me you're one of the goat people . . . . |
I'm a Capricorn, yeah. 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: August 18 2010 at 00:59 |
Textbook wrote:
Let's not name any names but I notice a distinct division on the site between people who are actual fans of progressive music (those who seek new, original sounds without regard for what elements are used to create them) and "faux" progressive fans who seek the intellectual cache of prog but actually run a mile from anything unfamiliar. Yes and Genesis are good bands and I like both of them but it must be said that for whatever reason a change/time resistant cult seems to have formed chiefly around them, the members of which only enjoy new prog if it sounds like Yes or Genesis. This to me is absolutely the opposite of prog as it is stagnant.
I accuse those who would not listen to or try music that is receiving acclaim because they "don't like that sort of thing" to be a lilly-livered rascal. I really like Johnny Cash but never would've tried him if I'd stuck to my "I don't like country music" thing. A true prog fan will try ANYTHING. ANYTHING AT ALL. They don't have to like it, but they'll get it and hear it all the way through before deciding.
True? |
Depends on how you define "prog" and "progressive." Is it a music style (as exemplified by the music of old top-tier prog bands), or is it a listening attitude? That is, is it in you, or the music?
All people here define it differently. It's a subjective, worn out & therefore just plain lousy term for classifying music for discussion, methinks.
Don't get hung up on the dictionary definition of progressive, either. Tellingly, most so-called "prog" musicians seem to hate the term, finding it pretentious, limiting and dated.
Also, why do I need to hear an album the entire way though, before forming an opinion as to whether it's within the general range of music I like? (Or could like, if you will.)  I know my general tastes by now (thus, part of your "issue" here is one of age and experience, I think -- I'd wager you're much younger than me). Surely, if I don't like disco, or death metal, for example, I don't need to suffer through another entire album of either to discern that it meets my "don't like" criteria. To say that I must last until the end is like saying one must read every page of every book one picks up, before deciding if one wants to read it.
Finally, who cares what others listen to? How does that affect your music pleasure? 
Edited by Peter - August 18 2010 at 11:21
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: August 18 2010 at 00:54 |
Devonsidhe wrote:
I've used the term "poser" over the years for the same reason. People who pose as something they are not. Most posers or faux will move on when something else becomes popular or they lose interest. A few, however, will learn what they don't know and become real. |
How the hell can someone be termed a poser, for listening to the music they like?
Are you saying that people willingly listen to the music they dislike?
And what's so wrong with 'moving on'?
MY musical taste is MY affair.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: August 18 2010 at 00:43 |
Don't tell me you're one of the goat people . . . .
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: August 18 2010 at 00:33 |
Textbook wrote:
I think the "I know what I like" attitude is quite silly though. How do you know till you hear it? |
I know what I like, and I like what I know. 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: August 18 2010 at 00:24 |
Textbook wrote:
A true prog fan will try ANYTHING. ANYTHING AT ALL.
True?
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Very............but let's not go there.........my gf reads these forums, too.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 20:33 |
Textbook wrote:
I think the "I know what I like" attitude is quite silly though. How do you know till you hear it? |
To a certain extent, you do. You can figure out if a particular style doesn't do much for you and become less keen to explore bands in that style. For instance, if a recommendation goes "Awesome contemporary symph prog like Flower Kings or Transatlantic", I will avoid it. "Prog metal like Shadow Gallery" also ticks the wrong box.  A Zeuhl recommendation would get me more interested. So, taking off from your Johnny Cash example, yes, it's possible that I might miss out a band I might have liked which was wrongly lumped in an unappealing basket. If that is close mindedness, so be it. There is too much music in the world to listen to in a lifetime, so if you miss out on a few artists, it's part of the deal.
Further, I don't like to penetrate genres too deeply and instead make out more time to explore the work of the best artists of the genre. So, to a hardcore prog or metal fan who likes anything thrown at him with that label, I might sound close minded and elitist. But I like prog, metal, classic rock, alternative, jazz, classical, R&B, funk, pop, folk, Hindustani, Carnatic, 'light' offshoots of Hindustani like ghazal/qawali, etc. That's quite a wide variety of music styles and if somebody can make a longer list of genres, fine, I am not in a race.  I am more interested in great artists rather than genres.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 19:26 |
Pangaea wrote:
People have perfectly valid reasons for not having a pressing need to seek out every little artist under the sun just so they can fly their True Prog Banner from on high on a little bulletin board.
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I like this.
Hang on..this isn't facebook.
But I concur!
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Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 19:20 |
Devonsidhe wrote:
I must be reading a different thread. The one I started reading was about keeping an open mind to genres you haven't heard. Not to judge something simply because you don't want to tlisten to it. ...... | (emphasis added)
You mean like people’s opinions? :
Textbook wrote:
….. "faux" progressive fans who seek the intellectual cache of prog but actually run a mile from anything unfamiliar. …
…..I accuse those who would not listen to or try music that is receiving acclaim because they "don't like that sort of thing" to be a lilly-livered rascal.
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Sounds like a judgment to me; right from the opening bell of this thread.
Why would you keep an open mind to genres of music, but be close-minded to other people's opinions? People have perfectly valid reasons for not having a pressing need to seek out every little artist under the sun just so they can fly their True Prog Banner from on high on a little bulletin board.
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Devonsidhe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
Status: Offline
Points: 74
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 17:31 |
Hawkwise wrote:
Labels Pickle Jars |
Their second album was pretty good too. 
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Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
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Devonsidhe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
Status: Offline
Points: 74
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 17:29 |
I must be reading a different thread. The one I started reading was about keeping an open mind to genres you haven't heard. Not to judge something simply because you don't want to tlisten to it. Not forcing people to listen to everything in their lifetime so they can accurately analyze their full taste in the entire catalog of music. Life isn't going to let you have a chance to listen to every possibility, but when life gives you the opportunity, give it a few seconds to see what you think.
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Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
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Anirml
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 377
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 17:10 |
Textbook wrote:
I think the "I know what I like" attitude is quite silly though. How do you know till you hear it? |
Yep, Agreed. The problem with a lot of prog (mainly the late 60's and 70's prog) is that you may not "get" an album at first listen. I disliked The Peter Gabriel Era Genesis for months! It sounded so strange to me that I disliked it at first listen. If it wasn't for you guys/girls here on PA I would still dislike PG era genesis! Thankfully some of you kept writing about how good Genesis is and I decided to listen again! (glad I did  ). You can't always trust "your personal taste"! 
Edited by Anirml - August 17 2010 at 17:11
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 16:35 |
I think the "I know what I like" attitude is quite silly though. How do you know till you hear it?
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 11:53 |
Hawkwise wrote:
Labels Pickle Jars
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We've had that one.
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Hawkwise
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2008
Location: Ontairo
Status: Offline
Points: 4119
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 11:46 |
Labels Pickle Jars
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Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 11:40 |
Textbook wrote:
Let's not name any names but I notice a distinct division on the site between people who are actual fans of progressive music (those who seek new, original sounds without regard for what elements are used to create them) and "faux" progressive fans who seek the intellectual cache of prog but actually run a mile from anything unfamiliar. Yes and Genesis are good bands and I like both of them but it must be said that for whatever reason a change/time resistant cult seems to have formed chiefly around them, the members of which only enjoy new prog if it sounds like Yes or Genesis. This to me is absolutely the opposite of prog as it is stagnant.
I accuse those who would not listen to or try music that is receiving acclaim because they "don't like that sort of thing" to be a lilly-livered rascal. I really like Johnny Cash but never would've tried him if I'd stuck to my "I don't like country music" thing. A true prog fan will try ANYTHING. ANYTHING AT ALL. They don't have to like it, but they'll get it and hear it all the way through before deciding.
True? |
The problem with this argument is that you're hitching your wagon to the Prog horse, and at the same time insisting that everyone else do likewise. We'll ignore the fact that you made your own definition of Prog while tacitly demanding that everyone else adhere to it.
So what you are in effect saying is "Look, follow me, I know the one true way". (Sort of like in One For The Vine, haha)
You'll find this same attitude in politics and religion. You have Believers (Good) and Non-Believers (Bad). In this case "Actual Prog Fans" (Good) and "Faux Prog Fans" (Bad). In order to be considered a True Republican/Christian/Prog Fan [insert your own combination here] you have to toe the party line. In your case, everyone has to try anything.
Why must a prog fan try anything, no wait, ANYTHING. ANYTHING AT ALL. ??? Just so they can say "Hey, I'm progressive. I'll try anything!"
You can be adventurous or progressive in ANY area certainly, but you know, some people screw goats and even ANYTHING AT ALL. If that's being progressive then I'll pass on that and settle for just being adventurous with my lady.
Edited by Pangaea - August 17 2010 at 11:46
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 09:49 |
Retrorocker nails it.
Life is far too short for me to waste my precious time listening to crap I don't like (my opinion, of course). So, no, I don't like country and won't bother trying something that is considered country. I've certainly heard quite a few country songs in my lifetime, and it's safe to say that unless something changes quite drastically with that genre, I won't be investigating it anytime soon. I also think Johnny Cash has some great stuff. So, despite my complete lack of inclination to listen to any country music, I heard JC anyway, and liked it. That is how these things generally work. Suggesting that I'm not open minded or that I'm somehow a "faux" prog fan because I don't waste my time trying music I have no interest in is the height of arrogance and self importance. Who are you, exactly, to suggest such things? A musical authority of some sort? I'm going to guess NOT.
Now, when friends or folks on this forum suggest that I might like a certain song or album or band, depending on how well they know me and how much respect I have for them, I MAY try it out if I have some spare time and find their recommendation intriguing. I may also hear something in a restaurant or bar or wherever that piques my interest and might be led to something new this way.
This is how it works for most people I imagine. I DO try new stuff, but I also know what I like. When I was 20 I had more time to spend checking out new stuff, but instead spent all my time listening to 70's prog and "classic" rock (though I did get into some jazz back then as well). I'd say I'm far more open now to new stuff.
But I'll just finish with something a friend told me once, "keep an open mind........but not so open that your brains fall out." Perhaps some folks should take that advice to heart, especially when dealing with a completely subjective subject like musical taste.
Edited by infandous - August 17 2010 at 09:50
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 02:38 |
Good posts RR
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retrorocker
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 09 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: August 16 2010 at 16:07 |
I could be wrong but I think what you're trying to say is that you can't know what you like until you have a label to stick on it, ie "Johnny Cash" or "Country Music", because of the inherent problems in describing what your musical preferences are in terms of multiple genres. However you are trying to promote open-minded listening habits, so this confuses me how that is relevent. (Yes, I know, I'm not the sharpest tool in the box...)
I think what I'm trying to say is that my opinion is that you can be as elitist or as blase about listening to music as you like, but thinking you can tell other people how to listen to music, or how to form their musical tastes, that's pretty silly. All you can do is put something in front of them and ask "What do you think?"
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"It's alright to lose your heart, but never lose your head!" ~ Phil Lynott RIP
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: August 16 2010 at 15:52 |
But you don't "know what you like", eg my Johnny Cash example.
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