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Prog-jester 
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 Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:37 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I'm prepared to accept that some of the things I take for granted may in fact be propaganda |
yet you never did this once  jeez this is so funny
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:33 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I wish we could just talk about facts |
I gave you plenty on pages 6 and 7, yet you ignored them all and chickened out via "you are not capable of rational discussion" insult 
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:32 |
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Mike - "when the "other side" responds with personal attacks, it's an indication that they do not have any rational arguments"
I'd say asking someone if they are a psychopath fits your own definition of not having any rational arguments quite clearly.
You can't claim you were pushed into this, people(especially Russians) call me names on the internet all the time, I never respond in a like manner, to do so is just cowardly.
Edited by Easy Money - October 10 2023 at 14:33
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:28 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:27 |
Easy Money wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Prog-jester wrote:
mEtApHySiCaL DiScUsSiOn |
Are you a psychopath? |
What makes you think Igor is a psychopath? He does not seem like that at all to me. |
His rants seem delusional to me. Maybe "psychopath" is a bit too harsh, but then again I've been called worse things in this thread, which is ok for most people as long as it is directed at people who are "not with them".
I wish we could just talk about facts, or at least try to. I'm prepared to accept that some of the things I take for granted may in fact be propaganda, but angry hyperbolic rants are just not the way to convince me. In my experience, when the "other side" responds with personal attacks, it's an indication that they do not have any rational arguments.
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:26 |
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:23 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ukraine shelling civilians in the Donbas with heavy artillery for years, resulting in thousands of deaths |
oh look, another russian propaganda trope! I won't talk about my mom living under the russian occupation in Donbass since 2014 and NEVER experiencing Ukrainian attacks - I'm an unreliable source, after all. Better look at these pictures:  Mariupol, once vibrant city of 300k Ukrainians, is a mass grave now
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
you. are. not. listening. You already made up your mind |
ironic
Edited by Prog-jester - October 10 2023 at 14:26
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:20 |
Prog-jester wrote:
thanks Mirakaze! People from Nethterlands understand the situation, especially after July 17th 2014...
Mirakaze wrote:
I really hope you don’t realize just how cold and callous you’re coming across, or how cheap it is for you to say things like “violence isn’t the answer”, “might makes right”, “c’est la vie” et cetera when it’s not your country being bombed or your friends and family being murdered. |
don't forget, I'm also a "psychopath" still don't know why |
For the record: Didn't call you "a psychopath". I just refered to this as a "psychopathic rant":
Prog jester wrote:
Jeez bandera nazis crimea referendum us maidan coup...the irony of reading russian propaganda bingo on a progressive (sic) music forum. Thankfully from the few users only.
I guess having an actual citizen of Ukraine telling you how it really is/was won't stop certain forum members from clinging to delusional stuff they chose to believe in. Probably life is easier that way - the country you never heard of before is all bad, therefore they all deserve to be wiped out by russians (who are also bad BUT YOU KNOW WHAT USA BAD ALSO!!1). Ridiculous and a little heartbreaking - I truly thought most prog fans are, well, progressive. Apparently not.
Well, you guys enjoy your little qanon cult, but don't be surprised to find a russian in your home soon, telling you he owns it now because nato biolabs something something nazis |
I don't appreciate being called a qanon cult member, so maybe we could say "I'm sorry if I went too far" to each other and call it even? 
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:18 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Prog-jester wrote:
mEtApHySiCaL DiScUsSiOn |
Are you a psychopath? |
What makes you think Igor is a psychopath? He does not seem like that at all to me.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:07 |
Mirakaze wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Sure, you can keep blaming the Russians
exclusively, but from an outside perspective it seems like your
government, as well as many others, also deserve some of the blame for
failing to negotiate a peace agreement or at least a cease-fire. |
Putin outright rejected a peace offer early on in the invasion that would have involved a guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO, supposedly his main rationale for the invasion, and subsequent rounds of negotiation have not sparked much confidence in Russia's good faith, what with them violating the Black Sea grain deal multiple times and making ludicrous claims at the UN about Ukrainian bioweapons in the midst of peace talks.
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That's news to me. Last I heard, it was Ukraine who sabotaged every attempt of negotiating peace by demanding that Russia give back Crimea (among other things) as well as all the occupied territories as a precondition for any talks.
Mirakaze wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
When it comes to agreements, how about James Baker promising Gorbatchev in 1990 that NATO would not expand eastwards? |
That has nothing to do with the Budapest memorandum, and was never formally agreed upon in any treaty; if anything Baker only promised that the administration he represented would not pursue eastward expansion of NATO. Anyway, I'm sure you'll agree that accepting the pleas of other countries to be allowed into an alliance is of quite a different level compared to a military invasion of another country. |
It was an agreement between two great powers, doesn't matter one bit how "formal" it was. Russia gave eastern Germany back to the West, which was a big deal. You can down-play it all you want, but Russia asked for non-expansion in return, and was in fact cheated repeatedly by step-wise expansion. Those who point this out usually explicitly say that this does not justify the invasion of Ukraine, as I have done, and which you conveniently ignore.
Mirakaze wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
And in more recent times, how about the Minsk 2 accord, where Ukraine promised to lead the Donbass oblasts into independence? |
Wrong. Ukraine promised a higher level of autonomy for the Donbas and new regional elections to be monitored by them under OSCE supervision. The DPR and LPR signed the agreement and then violated it a few months later by announcing they would set up elections of their own without any supervision. Besides, Russia also promised to withdraw all its official and irregular fighters and they didn't exactly uphold that part of the bargain either. |
Which in turn resulted in Ukraine shelling civilians in the Donbas with heavy artillery for years, resulting in thousands of deaths. Again, not a justification for the invasion, but not completely irrelevant either.
Mirakaze wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
And congratulations, you are the third person here to confuse "is" with "ought to be".
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I don’t think anyone is confused by this; if anything you seem to be confused since elsewhere in this thread you’re rightfully speaking out against the atrocities committed by the US government around the world, yet when it comes to atrocities committed by the Russian government you suddenly frame it as an amoral fact of life. The real difference is that the people you’re arguing with believe that we should make an active effort to make the way things currently are more like how they ought to be, whereas you don’t really seem to care (except when it suits your argument apparently). That’s fine, but at least be honest about it. |
Wrong. I have never made any excuses for the Russians. The problem is that when I say that I don't approve of their actions, you. are. not. listening. You already made up your mind and see me as a Russian apologist simply because I didn't join the angry mob asking for their extermination. I've read it today in this disgusting thread: "you're either with us or against us". This is only said by evil totalitarian fascists. I'm simply refusing to be one.
I never said that people shouldn't try to change things in order to make the world more like it "ought to be". They should - but until the world changes, it is like it is! It's of no use to pretend that the world is different, just because we don't like it. Ignoring reality is precisely what keeps us from actually making the right changes.
Mirakaze wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
These territories are officially part of Russia, as
the Russian parliament (the Duma) have decided. Remember: I'm not
saying this is a good thing, I'm just stating facts. |
Germany also formally declared that Poland was their territory. Surely you think it’s a good thing the world didn’t just accept that as a done deal, right? |
Are you blind? Which part of "I'm not saying this is a good thing" should I explain more explicitly?
Mirakaze wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
But of course I forgot, only the Ukrainians
matter. And that's why Stepan Bandera is a national hero to you - after
all, the >100k people he had murdered were not Ukrainian either. |
He explicitly called Bandera a Nazi and a war criminal when you asked him, what more do you want from him? And what kind of question was that anyway? Were you hoping to bait him into expressing support for Bandera just so you could smear the cause his people are fighting and dying for? I really hope you don’t realize just how cold and callous you’re coming across, or how cheap it is for you to say things like “violence isn’t the answer”, “might makes right”, “c’est la vie” et cetera when it’s not your country being bombed or your friends and family being murdered.
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That's not what I'm saying at all. It's also not what Mearsheimer is intending with his "realism". Again, it is about understanding reality and acknowledging its current state, and then to analyze it rationally and without letting emotion get in the way, to come up with realistic options for the future. Chasing Russia out of Ukraine simply doesn't seem to be one of them, unfortunately. As he explains, keeping up this strategy will most likely result in Russia taking more Ukrainian territory. I can point out again that this is not something I approve of, which you and many others here will again not read. I'll do it anyway.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 10 2023 at 14:09
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 14:00 |
Easy Money wrote:
Lithuania |
another country, which was lucky enough to step under NATO's protection after decades of russian colonial/imperialistic occupation  When we played there with my band a year ago, the promoter gave us 100% of the show's money - after he heard me speaking from the stage that we're raising money for Ukrainians affected by the russian invasion. Also there is something "NATO is also bad"-megabrains miss out: NATO never carried out a systematic destruction of cultural/historical heritage unlike soviets then and russia now. That's why non-russian ex-soviets are rarely nostalgic towards USSR
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 13:51 |
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Interesting story about my girlfriend's father escaping the Soviets. He was headed to Austria for a business trip. As soon as he stepped off the plane he went into a dead run headed for the nearby woods. He wandered in the woods for some time and finally found a village.
There is another PA site member whose parents literally dodged bullets while escaping Hungary, I forget his name and I haven't seen him in a while, but you have also already met Slava (PA name Snobb) who was raised in Soviet Lithuania and has plenty to tell about it.
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 13:34 |
Easy Money wrote:
My girlfriend, who was raised in Soviet Poland, claims the East Germans had it good compared to the Polish. |
...and Poland was a liberal heaven when compared to Ukraine or Bielorus  I guess people in Moscow or Leningrad had it better but everywhere else it was rough. This review reveals some major points, just to compare, and the book itself could be useful for those who don't really know anything about the Soviet times. I mean...
- In 1976 only two thirds of Soviet families had a refrigerator—the USA hit two thirds in the early 1930s. Soviet families had to wait years to get one, and when they finally got a postcard giving notice they could buy one, they had a fixed one hour slot during which they could pick it up. They lost their chance if they did not arrive in time.
- In the same period, the USA had nearly 100m passenger cars. The USSR? Five million. People typically had to wait four to six years, and often as long as ten, to get one.
- There was 30x as much typhoid, 20x as much measles, and cancer detection rates were half as good as in the United States.
- Life expectancy actually fell in the Soviet Union during the 1960s and 1970s.
- The USSR had the highest physician-patient ratio in the world, triple the UK rate, but many medical school graduates could not perform basic tasks like reading an electrocardiogram.
- 15% of the population lived in areas with pollution 10x normal levels.
- By the US poverty measure, well over half of the Soviet population were poor.
- Around a quarter could not afford a winter hat or coat, which cost an entire month’s wages on average (the equivalent of £1700 in UK terms) |
Edited by Prog-jester - October 10 2023 at 13:37
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 13:20 |
Prog-jester wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
you certainly won't hear any of them making using excuses for Russian imperialism. |
well unfortunately some of them either very nostalgic or just have a massive Stockholm syndrome case...this is when you have conversations like "why do you even like USSR grandpa, most of the time you couldn't afford bread there! - but at least the rest of the world was afraid of us!!!"
Really sad. Also Putin is clearly playing on those Soveit-era "EVERYBODY IS AFRAID OF US, ERGO THEY RESPECT US" sentiments, that's why the majority of russians openly supports him |
Interesting. Of course conditions under Soviet rule varied per country, some more harsh than others. The two I recall the most from my visit were East Germany (harsh) and Yugoslavia (less harsh). My girlfriend, who was raised in Soviet Poland, claims the East Germans had it good compared to the Polish.
Edited by Easy Money - October 10 2023 at 13:21
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 13:07 |
Easy Money wrote:
you certainly won't hear any of them making using excuses for Russian imperialism. |
well unfortunately some of them either very nostalgic or just have a massive Stockholm syndrome case...this is when you have conversations like "why do you even like USSR grandpa, most of the time you couldn't afford bread there! - but at least the rest of the world was afraid of us!!!" Really sad. Also Putin is clearly playing on those Soveit-era "EVERYBODY IS AFRAID OF US, ERGO THEY RESPECT US" sentiments, that's why the majority of russians openly supports him
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 12:53 |
Prog-jester wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Re Igor: I visited the Soviet Union back in the early 1980s, just curious, did you or your parents ever have the 'pleasure' of living under the iron thumb of the Soviets? |
of course! They're both born in 1951, so they were forty when the USSR fell. I'm 36 now so I don't remember those times and I was growing up in the desperate 90s (we had to eat pigeons to survive...and some claim that Donbass is the richest part of Ukraine, hah).
But my mom was very vocal about the horrors of the Soviet times, she used to say she'd stay forever in the 90s than return to the USSR for one day. Hence I don't really understand the current trend of romanticizing/memeing the hammer and the sickle ideology, since it wasn't far removed from the nazi one... Well, I guess it's hard to understand if you didn't experience it yourself |
Its good that some of the Soviet generation is still around, you certainly won't hear any of them making using excuses for Russian imperialism.
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 12:45 |
Easy Money wrote:
Re Igor: I visited the Soviet Union back in the early 1980s, just curious, did you or your parents ever have the 'pleasure' of living under the iron thumb of the Soviets? |
of course! They're both born in 1951, so they were forty when the USSR fell. I'm 36 now so I don't remember those times and I was growing up in the desperate 90s (we had to eat pigeons to survive...and some claim that Donbass is the richest part of Ukraine, hah). But my mom was very vocal about the horrors of the Soviet times, she used to say she'd stay forever in the 90s than return to the USSR for one day. Hence I don't really understand the current trend of romanticizing/memeing the hammer and the sickle ideology, since it wasn't far removed from the nazi one... Well, I guess it's hard to understand if you didn't experience it yourself
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 12:37 |
thanks Mirakaze! People from Nethterlands understand the situation, especially after July 17th 2014...
Mirakaze wrote:
I really hope you don’t realize just how cold and callous you’re coming across, or how cheap it is for you to say things like “violence isn’t the answer”, “might makes right”, “c’est la vie” et cetera when it’s not your country being bombed or your friends and family being murdered. |
don't forget, I'm also a "psychopath" still don't know why
Edited by Prog-jester - October 10 2023 at 12:39
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 12:24 |
Of course the message I spent over an hour writing down had to be caught at the bottom of the last page  I've tried to keep quiet here so far in part because I didn't want to be seen as speaking over the one actually Ukrainian voice in this thread, but there's only so much idiocy I can take. @Prog-jester: You have my sincerest condolences for any loved ones you've lost in this horrible ordeal. Ukraine's independence will always have a place in my heart.
Edited by Mirakaze - October 10 2023 at 12:26
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Posted: October 10 2023 at 12:18 |
The amount of hogwash in this thread is infuriating, so on the off chance that some of you I'm responding to aren't just trolling:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Crimea and four other Ukraine Oblasts
voted overwhelmingly to join Russia since 2014. |
Funny, since no opinion poll ever indicated that a majority in any of those oblasts (except Crimea, where polls differed) wanted to join Russia even in 2014; in Kherson that opinion was held by as little as 1% of people before 2022. I wonder what could explain the North Korean percentages who voted in favour of Russia then... maybe they like having death and destruction brought down upon them by an aggressive neighbour? Surely it couldn’t be that the results of an election with no independent monitors in a region under a hostile military occupation may have been tampered with, or that large amounts of people fled the violence and the Russian occupation, and those who stayed rightfully saw these referenda for the illegitimate shams they were and boycotted them, especially in Crimea and Sevastopol where the option of staying with Ukraine wasn’t even on the ballot and people had to choose between independence or joining Russia.
Sean Trane wrote:
But it was openly admitted that 95% of the population in Crimea was Russian still in 2014. Less so, for the four Oblasts, but still over 50% were. |
This doesn’t mean anything either. Zelenskyy himself is of Russian descent; do you think he’d rather be a Russian citizen? Do you think I would have welcomed a German invasion of the Netherlands because my grandmother was German?
omphaloskepsis wrote:
In 2014, an American/NATO-backed coup turned over
the democratically elected Ukrainian government. Dept of State-
Victoria Newland was recorded on a phone call deciding who would be the
next leader of Ukraine. |
Wrong. The phone call in question refers to a power sharing offer from Yanukovych in February 2014, which Yatsenyuk actually rejected at the time; so much for those US officials pulling the opposition’s strings. Yatsenyuk did end up becoming prime minister later, because the parliament (elected before the revolution) voted him in: he was after all the leader of the biggest opposition party and had been involved in national politics for almost 10 years by then; he was then democratically elected to that position later that year. Him simply being the guy whom the US state department happened to favour the most does not automatically make him a US puppet or the revolution that brought him to power a US coup.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Immediately, America armed Ukrainian attacks on the Dombass people. |
The USA began arming Ukraine after Russia had already annexed a sizeable portion of its territory, so that it could defend itself against Russian astroturf separatists. I'm not even speculating; look up the Surkov Leaks, which comprehensively sketch the Russian government's role in setting up the separatist regimes in the east and their duplicity in making it seem genuine (even though the first president of the Donetsk People's Republic was a straight-up Russian national from Moscow with ties to the FSB). Or don't; Putin has already admitted anyway that the Russian military has been involved in the Donbas since 2014, just like he admitted that the "little green men" occupying Crimea were actually Russian operatives all along despite claiming to have no involvement whatsoever.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
After Crimea voted to join Russia. Ukraine cut off all freshwater supplies to Crimea. |
And Russia blew up the Kakhovka dam, the reservoir of which happens to be Crimea’s main source of water, so we’ll call that one even.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Some
people don't think elections are valid if they disagree with the
winner. Hillary complained about the 2016 election. Trump complained
about 2020. It's legal for Hillary to complain. It's illegal for Trump
to complain. |
The difference: Hillary Clinton claimed that Trump was illegally helped by outside powers to sway public opinion in his favour, but never questioned the legitimacy of the election process itself (at most her team demanded a recount in a few states, which anyone is allowed to do; it happened, it upheld the original outcome and that was the end of it), whereas Trump incessantly spread unfounded claims about massive voter fraud, attempted to reject certified state electors who voted against him, attempted to coerce electoral officials into falsifying votes or making false claims about election fraud themselves, and when all that failed encouraged a horde of maniacs to storm the US Capitol to prevent the will of the people from being ratified.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Sure, you can keep blaming the Russians
exclusively, but from an outside perspective it seems like your
government, as well as many others, also deserve some of the blame for
failing to negotiate a peace agreement or at least a cease-fire. |
Putin outright rejected a peace offer early on in the invasion that would have involved a guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO, supposedly his main rationale for the invasion, and subsequent rounds of negotiation have not sparked much confidence in Russia's good faith, what with them violating the Black Sea grain deal multiple times and making ludicrous claims at the UN about Ukrainian bioweapons in the midst of peace talks.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
When it comes to agreements, how about James Baker promising Gorbatchev in 1990 that NATO would not expand eastwards? |
That has nothing to do with the Budapest memorandum, and was never formally agreed upon in any treaty; if anything Baker only promised that the administration he represented would not pursue eastward expansion of NATO. Anyway, I'm sure you'll agree that accepting the pleas of other countries to be allowed into an alliance is of quite a different level compared to a military invasion of another country.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
And in more recent times, how about the Minsk 2 accord, where Ukraine promised to lead the Donbass oblasts into independence? |
Wrong. Ukraine promised a higher level of autonomy for the Donbas and new regional elections to be monitored by them under OSCE supervision. The DPR and LPR signed the agreement and then violated it a few months later by announcing they would set up elections of their own without any supervision. Besides, Russia also promised to withdraw all its official and irregular fighters and they didn't exactly uphold that part of the bargain either.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
And congratulations, you are the third person here to confuse "is" with "ought to be".
|
I don’t think anyone is confused by this; if anything you seem to be confused since elsewhere in this thread you’re rightfully speaking out against the atrocities committed by the US government around the world, yet when it comes to atrocities committed by the Russian government you suddenly frame it as an amoral fact of life. The real difference is that the people you’re arguing with believe that we should make an active effort to make the way things currently are more like how they ought to be, whereas you don’t really seem to care (except when it suits your argument apparently). That’s fine, but at least be honest about it.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Russia
doesn't want nukes a few hundred miles from Moscow. Russia won't stop
until they eliminate that threat. Is it a threat? Russia thinks so. |
We live in an era where intercontinental ballistic missiles could reach the other end of the world in less than an hour; placing them in Ukraine (hypothetically I might add) instead of Poland hardly matters, nor should merely having a NATO state border you since Russia already had five of those before 2022.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you or I disagree with
the Autumn 2022 vote referendums. According to Russian law, Putin has
no choice but to defend the four Oblasts to the end. |
Russian law is a joke; ask the average Russian governor or oil baron if they worry about the law when they embezzle millions into their Panamanian bank accounts or order independent journalists and politicians to be assassinated. Putin keeps throwing Russian and Ukrainian lives into the meat grinder every day because he wants to, not because he “has no choice”.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Since the attack on Nordstream, the German economy
has gone under its worst decline in recent memory. No more cheap
Russian energy for Germany. That's OK with America. The US wants
Germany dependent on America. |
A fate far worse than being dependent on Russia and having to bow to the whims of its geopolitical ambitions, I’m sure.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Poland is pulling support |
Correction: the Polish government announced that it would stop supplying arms to Ukraine because it’s election season and the ruling party wants to secure the votes of farmers who would be disadvantaged by cheaper grain from Ukraine entering the Polish market, but support for Ukraine is still overwhelmingly popular among the Polish people (97% of whom have a negative view of Russia). President Duda has already been forced to downplay his earlier statements since they're hurting his party's popularity. Poland also feels threatened by Wagner’s military exercises near its border in Belarus and overall has great relations with the US so it’s hard to see them embark on any big geopolitical shift any time soon.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Slovakia is pulling support |
Only if Fico becomes prime minister, which isn’t set in stone yet. Besides, the Slovak government has admitted that it has already exhausted all arms that it could afford to freely supply to Ukraine so in purely material terms this won’t even make a difference.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
What were those goals?1. Free the Donbass |
I’m sure the people there are very happy with their newfound freedom now that their homes are destroyed, their possessions are looted and their children are abducted.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
3. Denatzify Ukraine |
Launching a full-scale military invasion and inflaming a nationalist awakening in the victimized Ukrainian people on top of deliberately flaring up ethnic tensions by pushing the narrative of “ethnic Russians” being diametrically opposed to the ethnic Ukrainian populace seems like a very bad way to achieve that, but okay. It should be noted that the word “fascism” in Russia is associated mainly with Nazi Germany and by extension with anything foreign or anti-Russian, hence why the people calling themselves “antifascists” in Russia happen to be the most nationalistic and conservative Putin fanboys. On that note I would also make a mention of the far-right elements within Putin’s own army but to be fair, he did murder Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin, so I suppose he deserves at least a few points in the fight against fascism.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Poland and Hungry take
sections of West Ukraine |
Do you honestly believe that Poland would be willing to definitively sour its relations with the west in that way and leave itself open as Russia's obvious next target of invasion? You have no idea what you're talking about.
omphaloskepsis wrote:
parts that used to be Hungry. |
Yeah, they were a lot hungrier in the 1930s.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
These territories are officially part of Russia, as
the Russian parliament (the Duma) have decided. Remember: I'm not
saying this is a good thing, I'm just stating facts. |
Germany also formally declared that Poland was their territory. Surely you think it’s a good thing the world didn’t just accept that as a done deal, right?
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
But of course I forgot, only the Ukrainians
matter. And that's why Stepan Bandera is a national hero to you - after
all, the >100k people he had murdered were not Ukrainian either. |
He explicitly called Bandera a Nazi and a war criminal when you asked him, what more do you want from him? And what kind of question was that anyway? Were you hoping to bait him into expressing support for Bandera just so you could smear the cause his people are fighting and dying for? I really hope you don’t realize just how cold and callous you’re coming across, or how cheap it is for you to say things like “violence isn’t the answer”, “might makes right”, “c’est la vie” et cetera when it’s not your country being bombed or your friends and family being murdered.
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