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CalamityDaemon View Drop Down
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Points: 48 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog Electric Guitar Models
    Posted: August 20 2005 at 12:52

He's right. You will not get a Fender sound from a Dean, but it really depends on what you're after. Fenders have an extremely flexible sound, they can be blues, punk, sleek, prog, whatever. The only problem I ever had with a Fender is that everyone and their little brother has one. They're cheap, they're good guitars, but they're as common as weeds.

The Hardtail is a little more off the wall. I certainly love mine, which is the same model you're looking at. The pickups arn't bad either.

But, personally, I'm dying to get my hands on one of the Phillips Guitar models. It's your call really. The Dean is at a good price, likewise is the Phillips. Fenders will always be cheaper, and extremely durable (Just look at SRV's guitar!), but once I saw Fender brand shoes I never wanted to even look at a Fender again.


Fight the power, eh!?
 

Edited by CalamityDaemon
I wake to Sleep and I take my Waking slow,
I feel my fate in what I cannot fear,
I learn by going where I have to go.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2005 at 04:35
Originally posted by Storm-Crow Storm-Crow wrote:

Ok well i think I'd like to go with the Dean Hard tail.  Ive read around and it seems to be a steal on this website--- almost too good to be true.  I was hoping someone could tell me if the guitar on zzsounds.com is the same as the one on this review page... which seems to imply that these guitars go for like $1500.  If they are indeed different, what are the major differences?

zzsounds.com link:  http://www.zzounds.com/item--DNEHTSTD/view--Black

Guitar review page:  http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Dean_Guitars/Har dTail-1.html

Much appreciated

Most guitar manufacturers offer their flagship models in different versions. There's usually a low cost version, a standard version and a custom version, with price levels like these:

  • Low-Cost: around $500
  • Standard: around $1.500
  • Custom: around $2.500

These versions differ in many ways:

  • Pickups
  • Woods
  • Neck construction
  • Tuners
  • Finish
  • Handling (setup of the frets)

As you're a beginner, it doesn't make much sense to go into too much detail here ...

BTW: That Dean guitar is ok, but you won't get any Fender-like sound out of it. That may or may not be a problem for you, it's your call.
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Points: 16310 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2005 at 01:59
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by CalamityDaemon CalamityDaemon wrote:


There's thousands of other players out there who all play different things. Petrucci, of *gasp* Dream Theatre, plays Ibanez guitars which are stylized more towards shredding and hard-rock. The members of Glass Hammer play Ibanez, Guild, and Gibson Les Paul guitars. I heard once from a teacher of mine that the guitar equals only about 30% of the actual sound, the rest is the amp. I believe this, so if you're planning on electric, be prepared to try out many amps before you find one with a tone you like.

Petrucci used to play Ibanez guitars, he now plays Music Man guitars exclusively. They're extraordinary - and also extraordinarely expensive.

Storm-Crow: If you - for some reason - don't want to try the Variax, I recommend the Pacifica. There may be many models, but as you are a beginner, it doesn't matter much which one you choose. If possible, you should choose a H-S-H guitar (Humbucker - Single Coil - Humbucker).



Musicman are great but so expensive. me i have an olp version it kicks A*** and with a v-amp i could get it so sing.
HSH guitars are very cool and Ibanez sells a cheap one for $225 but the pickups are horrible
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Storm-Crow View Drop Down
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Points: 55 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2005 at 00:26

Ok well i think I'd like to go with the Dean Hard tail.  Ive read around and it seems to be a steal on this website--- almost too good to be true.  I was hoping someone could tell me if the guitar on zzsounds.com is the same as the one on this review page... which seems to imply that these guitars go for like $1500.  If they are indeed different, what are the major differences?

zzsounds.com link:  http://www.zzounds.com/item--DNEHTSTD/view--Black

Guitar review page:  http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Dean_Guitars/Har dTail-1.html

Much appreciated
Take a salt tablet!!!
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cobb View Drop Down
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Points: 1149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 21:19
Originally posted by Storm-Crow Storm-Crow wrote:

I never knew yamaha made guitars (i guess they make pretty much everything these days tho.)


Yamaha have been producing quality guitars for years. Carlos Santana is the only famous artist I know offhand who uses them. I actually went in to buy a yamaha sg back in the 70s when it was on a special deal, but by the time I got there, the recording studio around the corner had beat me to it- had to settle for a les paul custom, which I was lucky to get. Back then it was very diffucult for a lefty to find them in store.
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Points: 20698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 20:37

Originally posted by Foxtrot Foxtrot wrote:

I've been a guitarist for many years, and my advice is to look for a used US or Mexican Gibson or Fender.  There are cheaper guitars out there, but they generally won't intone properly.  Having a chord tuned properly near the headstock will leave you out of tune on the funky chords you will be learning high on the neck.  Shop around, and check intonation carefully all over the neck - the note on the 12th fret should be EXACTLY an octave higher than on the open string.  If you are in a guitar shop, have them check the intonation - and you recheck it by ear before you buy - will save you a lot of frustration.

Why do you make it sound that complicated ... it doesn't matter if you buy a used guitar or a new one, the intonation has to be ok. In fact, most really used guitars have crappy intonation because the frets are worn and need to be replaced.

BTW: How can a newbie determine if the intonation is ok in the store? He/She can't. You need an analogue tuner to do that properly ...

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Points: 20698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 20:32

Originally posted by CalamityDaemon CalamityDaemon wrote:


There's thousands of other players out there who all play different things. Petrucci, of *gasp* Dream Theatre, plays Ibanez guitars which are stylized more towards shredding and hard-rock. The members of Glass Hammer play Ibanez, Guild, and Gibson Les Paul guitars. I heard once from a teacher of mine that the guitar equals only about 30% of the actual sound, the rest is the amp. I believe this, so if you're planning on electric, be prepared to try out many amps before you find one with a tone you like.

Petrucci used to play Ibanez guitars, he now plays Music Man guitars exclusively. They're extraordinary - and also extraordinarely expensive.

Storm-Crow: If you - for some reason - don't want to try the Variax, I recommend the Pacifica. There may be many models, but as you are a beginner, it doesn't matter much which one you choose. If possible, you should choose a H-S-H guitar (Humbucker - Single Coil - Humbucker).
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Storm-Crow View Drop Down
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Points: 55 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 20:30
CalamityDaemon:  Im quite intrigued with the Dean models... tive done a little research on them and they appear to be quite top-notch.  The price on the site you showed me is indeed a steal, considering people say they've payed $1300 for a used version.  1 thing-- is there any difference between the 3 guitars in the ZZ sounds sttachment u sent me?  cause one is $429, another $500, and even another at $600.  Plz get back to me soon...
Take a salt tablet!!!
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CalamityDaemon View Drop Down
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Points: 48 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 20:21
I'm sixteen and have been playing guitar for about four years now. Being a prog-fan I've naturally tried to get my hands on the guitars of my heroes or similar models. I'll throw some at you.

Both Kerry Livgren and Richard Williams from Kansas use Dean Hardtails (Which I also own)

Kerry, seen here, is playing a Dean. I bought mine here at Zzounds.com at the cheapest price (nearly a steal for a great sounding guitar as it is.) It's sleek and it's extremely flexible towards tone. I've thrown out squealing blues, roaring metal, delicate harmonics, and even pop-esque tunes with it.

Another, common, option for more laid back players is an archtop of sorts. Steve Howe, of Yes, plays a Gibson L-5 and a Gibson ES-175 (Which I'd kill to get my hands on). He even has a Signature Archtop Gibson ES-175 for a whopping 3k.

Howe, seen here, has been defining classic prog rock for years. A place that was recently put in the back of Guitar Player magazine has excellent archtops for unbelievable prices is Phillips Guitars, I'm actually going to get a job next summer just to buy the Nouveau 17. I suggest getting one of these!

There's thousands of other players out there who all play different things. Petrucci, of *gasp* Dream Theatre, plays Ibanez guitars which are stylized more towards shredding and hard-rock. The members of Glass Hammer play Ibanez, Guild, and Gibson Les Paul guitars. I heard once from a teacher of mine that the guitar equals only about 30% of the actual sound, the rest is the amp. I believe this, so if you're planning on electric, be prepared to try out many amps before you find one with a tone you like.

Some good sites to go to are Musiciansfriend.com and Zzounds.com. Both, have great deals and excellent service.

If you want to buy the guitar of the internet, then I suggest you go to a local music store and play the models you see on the net and are interested in.

When choosing your guitar, it can be very overwhelming your first time. Try this link before you buy one.

Alright, hope this all helps you. Good luck!


Edited by CalamityDaemon
I wake to Sleep and I take my Waking slow,
I feel my fate in what I cannot fear,
I learn by going where I have to go.
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Storm-Crow View Drop Down
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Points: 55 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 20:12
Tony Fisher: Thank you for the advice.  I never knew yamaha made guitars (i guess they make pretty much everything these days tho.)  I bought a professional yamaha clarinet over the more renown clarinet makers such as Buffet because i was totally blown away by the consistent great sound throughout the whole range of the instrument.  I imagine this likely applies to their guitars as well.  Yamaha music instruments are extremely well made and i would like to continue to ideally buy their products.  I was wondering, are there different models within the yamaha brand?  And if yes, is there one in my price range that you or anyone else would recommend?
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Points: 967 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 19:40

If I were you, I'd go for a Yamaha Pacifica without doubt. The best guitar under £300 in England so it should easily be in your price range. Looks and plays like a Strat and is far better built than the Fender Squier Strats. It would do well until you can afford a more advanced model. The Epiphone Les Paul is a good alternative with a more chunky, less "singy" sound. One of the guitarists in my son's band plays one and it's a very fine guitar. The other guitarist in the band has a Ibanez and hates it (but Ibanez basses are fine since my son has a BTB 6 string so this may be personal prejudice). I know other guitarists who swear by Ibanez.

Mexican Fenders are excellent quality since Fender's QC is legendary - it really isn't worth paying a premium for the American models except for snob value - so a second hand Mex Strat might be a possibility.

Good luck!
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Points: 44 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 18:35
I've been a guitarist for many years, and my advice is to look for a used US or Mexican Gibson or Fender.  There are cheaper guitars out there, but they generally won't intone properly.  Having a chord tuned properly near the headstock will leave you out of tune on the funky chords you will be learning high on the neck.  For prog oriented music, I would lean toward the Gibson, which has humbuckers - these provide a fuller more mellow sound.  The Fenders have a brighter (some say more tinny) sound.  My baby is a 2003 US Les Paul my fiance bought me, I also have a Hamer Explorer that I picked up used for about $700, and a Strat copy that I put DiMarzios in to enrich the sound.  I got a cheap Jackson at a pawn shop, and have never been able to keep it in tune, even with an official "licensed" Floyd Rose tremolo on it.  Ibanez used to make decent guitars - I have one of the lawsuit 1978 Les Paul customs they built - it keeps in tune pretty well, but there is a world of difference between that and the Gibson and Hamer guitars.  Shop around, and check intonation carefully all over the neck - the note on the 12th fret should be EXACTLY an octave higher than on the open string.  If you are in a guitar shop, have them check the intonation - and you recheck it by ear before you buy - will save you a lot of frustration.
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Points: 55 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 16:15

It appears as if the mexi-made strats are right in my ideal price range... how would they stack up to the American-made strats?  Would it be a better bet to go with the Ibanez RG170R for $230 Canadian?
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Points: 101 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 15:26
An aside, they're now making Strats with special pickups for various guitar synthesizers.  For those with the $$, it's a nice rig!  I've been thinking about getting my Flame retro-fitted, but am leery of letting some guy muck with it.
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Points: 101 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 15:24
Originally posted by Heptade Heptade wrote:

Good idea. Seattle has come cool places, including one of those fancy
Guitar Centers.


Watch those GC guys though--in my experience, awfully slimey salesmen (with exceptions, obviously).  In fact, guitar store salesmen aren't exactly the most honest folks in the world--similar to car salesmen!  [sorry if any of you are reading this, but you know it's true! ]

In general, I always know what the fair price is with musical gear, and I never settle for the ticket price.  Research pays!  If nothing else, I'll pull the old "well, a little expensive for me.  Just out of my range" routine.  Remember that pricing in music stores, especially those that sell mostly new gear, is set to get early teen's parents to cough up substantially more than the gear is worth.  I also always get them to throw in a cord to finish the deal: "tell you what, throw in that 20' cord and we'll do it."  ALmost all of my support gear was gained this way (guitar stand, mic stand, cords, etc)

Think about two guys haggling in a middle-eastern souk. 
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Points: 427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 15:15
Good idea. Seattle has come cool places, including one of those fancy
Guitar Centers.
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Points: 101 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 15:11
Originally posted by Storm-Crow Storm-Crow wrote:

Thank you so much for all the suggestions!  They have been most helpful in my goal of purchasing a guitar.

It seems the majority of people are swaying towards recommending the Fender Strat.  I was checking out some of the local music shops, and this guitar seems to be priced around 800 for the american-made version and 500 for the mexican ones.  I was also checking about some of the usual online-buying suspects (ebay, etc.)  and discovered that the Maxican-made strats drop in price significantly once they've been used for a year or two.  I would likely be able to purchase one from a reliable seller for around $250 or so.  Would this be a good idea?

Also, we here in Vancouver are lucky enough to have a Tom Lee music store which seems to offer the best prices in the area.  They currently have what i believe to be an amazing deal on an Ibanez RG170R-- which ive looked up and seems to usually sell around $300-350.  However, they currently have it on sale for $230 Canadian (190ish US)  The problem is that even i know this model is built for metal-heads.  Yet would it be a good option for a beginner like me?



Hey, just go down to Seattle and buy one minus the GST!  I lived in Seattle for 7 years a while back, and there were lots of music stores.  Unfortunately, it was long enough ago that I wouldn't be willing to make recommendations.  There was this cool little place on NE 65th St though, just a half block from 15th Ave NE.  I'm still kicking myself for not buying a Chapman Stick I saw there once, but I didn't have the >$1000 (I was in grad school).

Anyway, you can bring one back over the border, and if it's used just claim that you were down with some buddies.
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Points: 8 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 15:05

I have a Mexican Strat - bought it new about 7-8 years ago for $290. I don't play out, but it works just fine foer me. Sounds good, really easy to play, and I was able to add a wammy bar for $20.00. It seems to me that you should be able  to get a used one inyour price range.

 
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Points: 101 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 15:03
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I'm not a Variax rep, I don't even have one. Sounds like you're bashing the Variax for some reason. If you read reviews, ask guitar teachers etc. you'll find out that that Variax isn't a bad guitar at all.

Sorry, the highlighted bits in your post are just nonsense. It's true that no beginner cares ... but they should. If they buy the Variax, they are free to explore the Fender sounds and the Gibson sounds. The WORST thing a beginner can do is to buy a Fender Strat and then discover that he needs humbucker sounds, or he buys a Gibson and misses the "twang".

As I said in the above post: If you don't like the Variax, buy an alround guitar from Yamaha, Ibanez etc. but not a Fender Strat or a Les Paul.



I was just kiddin you about the Variax rep!

My take is that if you're going to learn and you're determined to be good at it, then learn on a good, but not great instrument.  Also, it is my opinion that beginners don't care as much for the finer subtleties of sound, but instead need a guitar that is easy to play and easy to learn on.  IMO moderate-priced Fenders and Gibsons fit this bill.

But I can indeed see the allure of versatility in sound--that's why I went for the Fender Flame back in the day.  I'd been playing a couple of years, was fair in skill, and wanted the diversity of sound without having to buy two guitars.  I have no regrets, but I dropped a pretty penny for it, too.
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Points: 427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2005 at 14:52
Personally I would not suggest that Ibanez...if you are not a metal-head,
you may not enjoy learning on it and you certainly won't want to keep it.
But Ibanez's are not bad guitars per se.

Ebay can be a good option if you find a reliable seller. It's always a risk,
and remember the shipping could cost you from the States. I'm Canadian
also, and I know about that. Customs charges could add another $150.00
bucks, no kidding, if the government decides you are buying something
and the seller doesn't mark it as a gift. So you have to factor that
possibility in.

Are there any other used music stores in Vancouver? I figure there has to
be. Check around some more in your Vancouver/Victoria stores before
buying on the internet. Mexican strats are common and a good value for
the money.

Edited by Heptade
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