Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all. Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
QuoteReplyTopic: Ok. Which is superior ? Posted: April 12 2020 at 10:59
Lewian wrote:
If an album has a great production and sound effects that perfectly fit into the general scope of the album and underline its message in a perfect way, that doesn't mean that the album is only appreciated so highly because of production and sound effects.
Foxtrot is an excellent album of progressive rock and I now think it may be my favourite out of Genesis' studio albums. However I voted for DSOTM, not because of production and sound effects because apart from the supreme songwriting there is something really deep about this album, touching the basis of the human condition, if you want. There are some reaction videos around demonstrating what it does to people.
Now I love Watcher of the Skies to pieces but it will not trigger this kind of feelings. Obviously this has nothing to do with how proggy it is, that's a side issue of little musical and emotional interest.
Yes we are talkin about very good albums, masterpieces or almost masterpieces. I agree with you, sound effects in TDSOTM perfectly fit into the general scope of the album. In my personal ranking both Foxtrot and TDSOTM are between 4 and 5 stars, but TDSOTM is really close to 5 stars.
Still, I consider TDSOTM overrated thanks to the perfection of his packaging. Overrated if I think that it is in the Top 10 of PA and RateYourMusic.
I keep my vynils in alphabetical order by artist. Pink tops Genesis. (Apart of that I'm everything but a Genesis fan)
I used to work in a record store in the early 90's
customer: "hey you guys don't have any Floyd?"
me: "yes, did you look under P"
customer: "I'm an idiot"
That's hilarious!
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
I'd pick Dark Side at any time. I find it one of the most accomplised and intriguing rock albums ever made, both in terms of songwriting, concept, sonic texture and general musical and artistic wholeness.
Wish You Were Here on the other hand was the prog album of the mid seventies and I like to believe that was the album they really wanted to do but perhaps felt there were other pressures that lead them down the DSOTM route first. Again just theorising and not trying to say this is the truth. Its just my view for what's it worth ( diddly squat I expect)
Nah, WYWH was the one they made when they were burnt out after the success of DSOTM. And it shows. Also the beginning of the Waters-isation of Floyd.
well obviously I totally disagree with that . Rick Wright's synths are tremendous on that album (very bored by what he does on DSOTM tbh) so I think Waters was still 'allowing' others to come and influence the music. It was after this that it became Water's band although I still love Animals and The Wall is alos very important to me and has way more 'heart' than DSOTM (IMHO).
The start of Shine on, is sublime, atmospheric theatre and extended...Genesis should have done similar with Salmacis, where a great track could have been made epic along with an extended guitar solo at the end...and an obviously OTT start and the great VCS 3 work at the end, makes shine on far less likeable to non proggers....It has the essence of symphonic prog genius...but replace the sax with guitar or synth and it would gain more for me anyway...I know i'm a particular kind of prog snob...but I know what I like...
Very well written and I agree with most of this, except that I can still connect better to the music on Animals, maybe because it was my first Floyd album and one of my first albums overall, and for me it had a big impact even if not on the world of music, but maybe also because analysis of music sometimes can't get into why a certain guitar part, a certain transition etc. work so well on an emotional level.
By the way, I couldn't get into Dark Side for a long time and until not so many years ago I would have ranked it lower than the three that came after it and most that came before. Not that I didn't like it but I couldn't see what's so great about it, or rather I saw a well working concept but not so much the greatness of the music behind it, a bit like Barney if you want... at some point it just clicked, and how it clicked!
Thanks. And for me, Dark Side was my introduction to Floyd so that may be a part of why I am more attached to it vis a vis Animals.
I cannot speak for Floyd fanboys in general because at least outside this board, I know this opinion which I am about to state is not necessarily very popular among Floydians. But I personally never saw the fuss about WYWH. I mean it's a very, very good album, beautiful melodies and all but I never saw it as the undeniable masterpiece it is often made out to be. And I really don't like Floyd moving out of pyschedelic noise and trying to write structured blues 'jams' (I put jams in single quotes exactly because it's way too structured to evoke the feeling of a jam). And then the second part seems to be trying to evoke jazz rock/fusion and it's even more boring for me. If I wanted a blues jam, I would listen to Allman Brothers. I would listen to the wonderful Gary Moore-BB King jam on Thrill Is Gone that's up on YouTube and which every lover of guitar should listen to at least once. If I wanted JR/F, I would listen to Mahavishnu or RTF, even Di Meola solo. Floyd comes across as too tame when they attempt this. Actually, much more so than DSOTM, it is WYWH which comes across as gateway prog for me. Like In Absentia era PT, it is very comforting and melodic, and also very safe. And the longish lengths make it feel like it's prog but it's only about as prog as Child In Time or Stairway To Heaven. So overall, no, I prefer the succinctness and punch of Dark Side anyday. Lyrically too, there is a lot of waxing over Syd on WYWH which is nice but also lacks the broad sweep of Dark Side as well as the latter's more bitter outlook. Notice how many songs on Dark Side concern death or a path that leads to death. Lyrically, Dark Side is way more hard hitting, at least for me.
Hard hitting lyrics is the chief attraction of Animals. And the concept overall is very coherent too which does make it a much harder choice between Animals and Dark Side for me. But musically, I find Pigs VERY rambling and Sheep too a little rambling with Dogs being the only one that works in totality for me. So again, the brevity of DSOTM works for me. Basically, I don't think Floyd should have attempted epics or mini epics after Echoes. That was their best and they were never going to top that. I am sympathetic to Animals because Floyd came out swinging with all these long tracks in the peak of punk and because the lyrics were too hard hitting to be dismissed as airy-fairy out of touch prog, critics were put in a fix. But as an overall listening experience, no, I still don't think it gets up to DSOTM.
The Wall comes closest until it falters a little towards the end. The problem with Wall is every song is wedded tightly to the narrative to the point that the ones towards the end like Trial do not work outside the context of the concept. Whereas on Dark Side, the concept is broader rather than being about a specific person's story and the songs standalone have a lot to say.
Very well written and I agree with most of this, except that I can still connect better to the music on Animals, maybe because it was my first Floyd album and one of my first albums overall, and for me it had a big impact even if not on the world of music, but maybe also because analysis of music sometimes can't get into why a certain guitar part, a certain transition etc. work so well on an emotional level.
By the way, I couldn't get into Dark Side for a long time and until not so many years ago I would have ranked it lower than the three that came after it and most that came before. Not that I didn't like it but I couldn't see what's so great about it, or rather I saw a well working concept but not so much the greatness of the music behind it, a bit like Barney if you want... at some point it just clicked, and how it clicked!
I've always felt WYWH is actually a touch more commercial than DSOTM. Sure it's very spacey and atmospheric, but it also has the title track, which is 70s radio incarnate, and Have A Cigar, which is the kind of great blues jam half a dozen rock bands could've made a hit out of. DSOTM isn't uncommercial, but I think it's telling that it has On The Run and The Great Gig In The Sky on it, as well as the fact that although Money became a massive hit, it is the only song by any band in 7/4 ever to reach that level of chart success. No matter how catchy that bass line is, it must have seemed unlikely that it would really hit big until it happened. WYWH just seems more cleaned up to me, even its experiments still keeping one ear to the charts.
Exactly my thoughts. Their most by the numbers album of the ones from Meddle to Wall.
Wish You Were Here on the other hand was the prog album of the mid seventies and I like to believe that was the album they really wanted to do but perhaps felt there were other pressures that lead them down the DSOTM route first. Again just theorising and not trying to say this is the truth. Its just my view for what's it worth ( diddly squat I expect)
Nah, WYWH was the one they made when they were burnt out after the success of DSOTM. And it shows. Also the beginning of the Waters-isation of Floyd.
I've always felt WYWH is actually a touch more commercial than DSOTM. Sure it's very spacey and atmospheric, but it also has the title track, which is 70s radio incarnate, and Have A Cigar, which is the kind of great blues jam half a dozen rock bands could've made a hit out of. DSOTM isn't uncommercial, but I think it's telling that it has On The Run and The Great Gig In The Sky on it, as well as the fact that although Money became a massive hit, it is the only song by any band in 7/4 ever to reach that level of chart success. No matter how catchy that bass line is, it must have seemed unlikely that it would really hit big until it happened. WYWH just seems more cleaned up to me, even its experiments still keeping one ear to the charts.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
richardh: But Floyd had a history of shorter and more accessible songs already. They had done Obscured by Clouds not long before, and much of the first side of Meddle is also of this kind. And then Pink Floyd had not evolved very "naturally" before. The second album of Ummagamma was weird, AHM was very special, Obscured by Clouds was then totally different; they liked change in these days. I read that Waters had wanted to do a concept album earlier, for Dark Side the others finally could agree. There were always different facets to what they wanted to do, but then they wanted their albums to have some consistency in themselves, so they changed quite a bit from album to album. So I can get and respect why you think it's overrated, but I don't think, and I don't see any indication that it is a "deception", anything else than the music they really liked and wanted to do at the time.
I suppose what I am really saying is that it was just as pretentious as everything else that was called 'prog' but somehow managed to gain a lot of credit for being down to earth. It still feels altogether too contrived and convenient. It was also backed by a massive marketing campaign in the USA where they were keen to break into. It succeeded in spades of course. I don't want to come off as a 'hater' though because I have massive respect for Waters, Gilmour and Co. Wish You Were Here on the other hand was the prog album of the mid seventies and I like to believe that was the album they really wanted to do but perhaps felt there were other pressures that lead them down the DSOTM route first. Again just theorising and not trying to say this is the truth. Its just my view for what's it worth ( diddly squat I expect)
I kind of doubt they put together DSOTM wanting to make WYWH all along.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
Aye...the older floyd releases I have in my collection, but as yet unplayed...another gap in my prog listening experience. I have only just got round to hearing Yes and Time and a word...even though I have both vinyl and CD versions....I have said before I have hundreds of unheard cds and at least a 1000 single spun cds....I suffer from wantimg to spin what I love when preparing a playlist...😎
richardh: But Floyd had a history of shorter and more accessible songs already. They had done Obscured by Clouds not long before, and much of the first side of Meddle is also of this kind. And then Pink Floyd had not evolved very "naturally" before. The second album of Ummagamma was weird, AHM was very special, Obscured by Clouds was then totally different; they liked change in these days. I read that Waters had wanted to do a concept album earlier, for Dark Side the others finally could agree. There were always different facets to what they wanted to do, but then they wanted their albums to have some consistency in themselves, so they changed quite a bit from album to album. So I can get and respect why you think it's overrated, but I don't think, and I don't see any indication that it is a "deception", anything else than the music they really liked and wanted to do at the time.
I suppose what I am really saying is that it was just as pretentious as everything else that was called 'prog' but somehow managed to gain a lot of credit for being down to earth. It still feels altogether too contrived and convenient. It was also backed by a massive marketing campaign in the USA where they were keen to break into. It succeeded in spades of course. I don't want to come off as a 'hater' though because I have massive respect for Waters, Gilmour and Co. Wish You Were Here on the other hand was the prog album of the mid seventies and I like to believe that was the album they really wanted to do but perhaps felt there were other pressures that lead them down the DSOTM route first. Again just theorising and not trying to say this is the truth. Its just my view for what's it worth ( diddly squat I expect)
I am a Floyd fanboy and no-one just canīt say me what I prefer from them. To me WYWH is the second weakest Floyd album in their 1967-79 albums (only Obscured is weaker). And although Animals is really high in my rating and I listen it more these days than Dark Side, it doesnīt go over. After Atom Heart albums Dark Side is the greatest.
Not really. He doesn't like the Beatles and he doesn't like Floyd, so what can he do but agree.
If anybody feels insulted, I apologise? Sp?...and perhaps I don't particularly like the beatles...but you have misunderstood my position as Floyd is concerned...I love some floyd, Echoes, SOYCD and Animals is possibly in my top 100 symphonic prog releases...sure, they are a long way behind Genesis, Yes, Camel, IQ, FK's, ELP and a few others..😁 but hey , surely even Floyd fanboys must place DSOTM below the two releases that follow it? Or am I mistaken? Again PEACE with my prog brothers...
No sweat Barney. It's not like you refer to Tull as "Jethro Dull " like micky does. And even if he does, I still love him. It's only music.
Edited by SteveG - April 09 2020 at 11:05
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
I'll never forget the first time I listened to WYWH with a couple of friends. Absolutely freaked me out. The lyrics about Syd make it more emotionally connecting for me than DSOTM. Animals has only one outstanding song to me in Dogs whereas The Wall rambles on a bit too long on the fourth side but has Comfortably Numb which is their best ever song.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.145 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.