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    Posted: September 13 2023 at 06:50
When it comes to politics, I like starting battles. But on other kind of websites. I've been banned by Linkedin years ago as I was too used to speak in tongue, but I wouldn't do it on PA.

When it comes to music, I respect any position and prog doesn't include Trance, Hip-Hop and their likes.
Should I have to complain about somebody in a thread, the best I can do is send a PM to the "offender" if I feel the urge to do it, otherwise I shut up.

Never sent a PM of that kind since 2006.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


I appreciate variety.  There are plenty of other threads to focus on. And if one really cares to look, maybe some more positive and enjoyable posts to respond to in the thread.  Some people do just focus on the more/ most negative aspects.  It's like negative people who complain about other's negativity.  If you don't like it or it causes stress, I do find it odd that one would keep at it and keep responding.  I guess that may be compulsive and obsessive behaviour (I have OCD).



(brilliant album releases a couple of months ago btw, only prog-related, but still wonderful Smile)

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I do tend to ignore and/or not to respond to the more political kind of threads because they can be so polarised, unfriendly, and get very hostile.  I enjoy talking politics and discussing different perspectives, but not when it gets aggressive and not when it seems that people have intractable positions.  I do like friendly conversation, and I prefer dialectic to typical argumentative debate.  I'm not that interested in the kind of trying to "win" mentalities in discussion or when it comes to belittling others to bolster yourself.  In some cases insults are used to try to shut down conversation, and you find people shifting the goalposts...

To use wikipedia's definition for dialectic:  "Dialectic, also known as the dialectical method, refers originally to dialogue between people holding different points of view about a subject, but wishing to arrive at the truth through reasoned argumentation."

Same here. When I make a certain point in a discussion, I'm always interested in constructive feedback. Was my claim incorrect? I really want to know! But that requires a reasoned argument to that effect. Personal attacks and emotional appeals can only distract us from the truth.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 13 2023 at 05:21
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^ true dat. Metal prog tackles more controversial issues but non-metal prog for the most part avoids it. Not all Krautrock is really prog though. Much of it is experimental and that seemed to be more true in the 60s / 70s.

There were Swedish political bands too that i'm forgetting the name of at the moment.

One of the appealing aspects of punk rock in the late 70s over prog was that it was unapologetically political whereas much prog was simply in aerie fairy territory.

It's also true many of these political artists espoused their philosophies in their own languages therefore much of the content is lost to English speaking ears.

In many cases i prefer to not comprehend the lyrical content!

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I did not say we shouldn't generally talk about important/serious stuff. I was speaking strictly for myself here. I tend to get super anxious when such discussions pop up because of bad stuff I experienced in the past and medical reasons. :(


If these topics make you anxious then why in the world would you keep responding?!!! Confused

Another PA thread run amoK!

Guess there's not enough politically incorrect prog to tear down to size?

Prog is actually fairly uniform in that it tends to eschew politics and veer towards utopian fantasy.

Back to the topic of the thread i could mention Area which was too socialist for many.

Also Floh De Cologne which was enamored with Soviet styled communism.

Other than that in prog there's a lot of hippie dippie-ism!

It's an escapist art form which is why we like it.

There's also lots of DYStopian prog around (most of Ayreon, for example). Much of Krautrock/RIO was also politically motivated, on the far left side of the spectrum. There's PF - Animals/The Wall ... 
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I appreciate variety.  There are plenty of other threads to focus on. And if one really cares to look, maybe some more positive and enjoyable posts to respond to in the thread.  Some people do just focus on the more/ most negative aspects.  It's like negative people who complain about other's negativity.  If you don't like it or it causes stress, I do find it odd that one would keep at it and keep responding.  I guess that may be compulsive and obsessive behaviour (I have OCD).

I do tend to ignore and/or not to respond to the more political kind of threads because they can be so polarised, unfriendly, and get very hostile.  I enjoy talking politics and discussing different perspectives, but not when it gets aggressive and not when it seems that people have intractable positions.  I do like friendly conversation, and I prefer dialectic to typical argumentative debate.  I'm not that interested in the kind of trying to "win" mentalities in discussion or when it comes to belittling others to bolster yourself.  In some cases insults are used to try to shut down conversation, and you find people shifting the goalposts...

To use wikipedia's definition for dialectic:  "Dialectic, also known as the dialectical method, refers originally to dialogue between people holding different points of view about a subject, but wishing to arrive at the truth through reasoned argumentation."

Anyway, we do get some pretty heated discussion which can melt a snowflake like me. ;)  And sometimes people have to be reminded of the following:

"No Personal attacks (flaming or trolling). Keep it civil, show respect at all times for your fellow members. Disagreement, debate, even "heated" discussion is fine (though emoticons should be used to "soften" the effect of words). However, personally directed insults, denigration, etc. will not be tolerated, and will be grounds for warning and, if not stopped immediately, ejection. This applies equally to forum posts AND private messages. "Group-directed" insults and denigration (e.g., racism, sexism, ageism, etc.) also fall under this category, any such behavior will be taken on a case by case basis. Any member who engages in continuous baiting, borderline insults, or other continuously "aggressive" behaviour will be warned."




Edited by Logan - September 13 2023 at 04:54
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I did not say we shouldn't generally talk about important/serious stuff. I was speaking strictly for myself here. I tend to get super anxious when such discussions pop up because of bad stuff I experienced in the past and medical reasons. :(


If these topics make you anxious then why in the world would you keep responding?!!! Confused

Another PA thread run amoK!

Guess there's not enough politically incorrect prog to tear down to size?

Prog is actually fairly uniform in that it tends to eschew politics and veer towards utopian fantasy.

Back to the topic of the thread i could mention Area which was too socialist for many.

Also Floh De Cologne which was enamored with Soviet styled communism.

Other than that in prog there's a lot of hippie dippie-ism!

It's an escapist art form which is why we like it.

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^ Sure! I didn't mean to single you out. I was just saying that many people feel the same as you do, and I tend to avoid these discussions also, for the most part. Like I said, that can then create the impression of a (silent) consensus that starts to break down once anyone tries to poke at it (e.g. ask uncomfortable questions, or put another way, say something that is politically incorrect).
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I did not say we shouldn't generally talk about important/serious stuff. I was speaking strictly for myself here. I tend to get super anxious when such discussions pop up because of bad stuff I experienced in the past and medical reasons. :(
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^ Fair enough. Life is certainly easier when you never talk about something important with anyone - just keep it at the smalltalk level. The only problem is that when no sensitive topics are discussed anymore, nobody really knows what others are thinking. That then creates the impression of a general consensus - it gets really easy to assume that everybody agrees on issues like global warming, pandemics, politics, the economy, money, wars in foreign countries ... hence the currently popular meme of "supporting the current thing". We assume that all the politicians we see on mainstream media a) know what they're doing, and b) are acting in our interest, so we simply support them and fight against anything that doesn't fit.

I think that both these assumptions are clearly wrong. We actually know that a) all politicians are corrupt to some degree and deceiving their constituents is part and parcel of their trade and b) they are acting in their own interest and only care about their constituents to the degree that it affects their livelihoods.

So I suspect that it is this cognitive dissonance that is creating all the bottled up rage and anger that has been on display in this thread. Cages have been rattled ...

Here's a podcast which I found quite interesting on that subject - whom can we trust? How can we know what's true and what's false? It's not prog, but it's certainly politically incorrect Smile

 


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 13 2023 at 02:03
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I personally choose to refuse to talk about political correctness/politics/polarizing social phenomenons/something-something-phobias with anybody ever. ESPECIALLY online. It usually leads to arguments, generates unnecessary tension and often can reveal people's bad traits or signs of them being fanatics in one way or another. :_: I prefer to stay silent, instead of becoming an enemy or an object of ridicule of one side, or the opposite side. I dunno. These discussions just make me a bit anxious. You know what I mean? I wish we could just get along.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I watched it some time ago.   All presidents lie and it's naive to think otherwise.   Hanson is a loon, but I don't care much for politics anyway---   I do respect your passion for free speech, and I'm gonna leave it at that.  

I have a passion for truth more than anything else. And I hate it when people make personal attacks on no factual basis. Ok, so you're saying "Hanson is a loon" ... why? Bring some evidence. Give me an example of a "loony" statement he made, and I'll comment on it.

"All presidents lie" ... and that makes it ok? Dr. House said "everybody lies", which is of course true. Does that mean that any lie could be excused? 
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Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

1) Why bring trans people up all of a sudden only to talk sh*t about them?
In a thread with this title I'm frankly surprised it took 8 pages for that to happen

Except that nobody was talking sh*t about them, as far as I recall.
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^ I watched it some time ago.   All presidents lie and it's naive to think otherwise.   Hanson is a loon, but I don't care much for politics anyway---   I do respect your passion for free speech, and I'm gonna leave it at that.  


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ See, I care more about what is being said than about who is saying it. Can you name one claim he makes in the video which is false?

And I am not “standing up” for the guy. What gave you that impression?

So I'm gonna guess you know very little about twisted extremist Victor Davis Hanson, if anything at all, other than a quick skim of the posted film.   Which indicates your defense of free speech is based not on any content or individual, but rather blind allegiance to a principal.   Seems to me that you, as an intelligent person, would want to be well informed of the material you post regardless of your central point.   But I can see the obvious answer is 'No--  it's not about content, it's about speech.'   Yeah, I get it.

 





Wow. You managed to accuse me of so much ignorance while still not saying anything about the content of the video. Did you even watch a minute of it? I challenge you to name one claim the video makes which isn’t correct, or to concede that you don’t care about the content.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ many cannot grasp the abstract concept that supporting one’s ability to speak does not mean that one agrees with that speech

What a spineless, clueless, empty, hands-off thing to say.  

Yes, you're right, I like free speech.
Wasn't referring to you. Thanks for getting offended? Sleepy

In the US we have the first amendment. That guarantees all opinions are allowed.
Free speech does not include inciting violence or criminal behavior but it does ensure that anyone can express their opinions no matter how repulsive. I simply just ignore things i loathe however i support the freedom for those to espouse those viewpoints. It's called tolerance.


My post was dumb and unnecessary.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ many cannot grasp the abstract concept that supporting one’s ability to speak does not mean that one agrees with that speech

What a spineless, clueless, empty, hands-off thing to say.  

Yes, you're right, I like free speech.






Wasn't referring to you. Thanks for getting offended? Sleepy

In the US we have the first amendment. That guarantees all opinions are allowed.

Free speech does not include inciting violence or criminal behavior but it does ensure that anyone can express their opinions no matter how repulsive. I simply just ignore things i loathe however i support the freedom for those to espouse those viewpoints. It's called tolerance.


Edited by siLLy puPPy - September 11 2023 at 21:34

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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

1) Why bring trans people up all of a sudden only to talk sh*t about them?
In a thread with this title I'm frankly surprised it took 8 pages for that to happen
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ See, I care more about what is being said than about who is saying it. Can you name one claim he makes in the video which is false?

And I am not “standing up” for the guy. What gave you that impression?

So I'm gonna guess you know very little about twisted extremist Victor Davis Hanson, if anything at all, other than a quick skim of the posted film.   Which indicates your defense of free speech is based not on any content or individual, but rather blind allegiance to a principal.   Seems to me that you, as an intelligent person, would want to be well informed of the material you post regardless of your central point.   But I can see the obvious answer is 'No--  it's not about content, it's about speech.'   Yeah, I get it.

 
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ many cannot grasp the abstract concept that supporting one’s ability to speak does not mean that one agrees with that speech

What a spineless, clueless, empty, hands-off thing to say.  

Yes, you're right, I like free speech.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

There's pros and cons, to be sure.
 
That's true, but the statement I quoted by Stressed Cheese implies that modern society is all pros and no cons. It implies that modern society is such a paragon of virtue that anyone who disagrees with it in any way is automatically wrong. Thus, it is important that there is the freedom to say things that are in disagreement with modern society because commonly held views might be wrong or just plain absurd.
 
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