Organizing Symphonic Prog

Mike wrote:

It was just a thought ... it would probably only make sense on an album level

GREAT POINT MIKE

That's something I always claimed, bands may pass through different stages and different sub-genres in their career.

Let's start with the most obvious case:

Genesis:

1. FGTTR: Melodic POP
2. Trespass, NC, Foxtrot, SEBTP, The Lamb, Wind & Wuthering: Symphonic
3. ATOTT: Neo Prog
4. ATTW3, Duke: Art Rock
5. Abacrap...... We Can't Dance: POP, Adult Oriented, Muzak, etc.
6. CAS: Art Rock

Six different stages and they go forward or backwards, they changed not only sub-genres, but also genres. I believe Prog Archives should mention this on each album.

A modern example

Magenta:

1. Revolutions: Symphonic
2. Seven: Neo Prog
3. Broken (EP): Art Rock

Again the same example but this time the evolution is linear.

Iván

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ Maybe a "Modern Neo Prog" genre would make sense then, for bands like Arena, IQ, Pendragon, Pallas (and of course modern Marillion) etc. which were very active in the 90s.

Don't be so strict Mike  Yes is symphonic today and still are active and Symphonic.

Arena, IQ and Pendragon were and are Neo Prog, the only criteria is not time, mainly it's influence and the way they worked with it.

I'm talking about a general definition, but reality is different to real and strict definitions.

Iván

micky wrote: hahahahah you really don't like ELO do you. Agree to disagree, though I think you are smart (and without a doubt wise)  enough not to let that be the way you really think.

LOL, I'm a Lawyer, what do you expected???

But honestly, all I said is true, I love ELO (Even when not Prog) specially A New World Record, it's imaginative, intelligent and fresh.

You know I'm a Genesis fan that can't forgive them for Post Duike stuff, so it's with ELO. A New World Record always has  a place in my car CD, but please going to Disco??? There were a lot of better options in the late 70's early 80's, even Punk was better, what serious artist who wants some credit makes a Disco album with Olivia Newton John, a symbol of those who hated Prog?

Many groups from the 70's ran short of ideas in the progressive vein, and mutated their sound to stay current/commercial viable.  If ELO commited the sin of going to the dark side (disco ) that doesn't change the fact that they put out 6 or 7 rather good and interesting prog albums before that.  No one's saying that were at Yes or Genesis level, but give them their due for trying something different (progressive) and suceeding in their efforts.

Never said their first six albums were bad, but it's Rock with Orchestral instruments, nothing more, nothing less. There were a lot of enssembles and bands that used Orchestral instruments in the late 70's, but that doesn't mean they are Prog.

In any case, I agree to disagree

Iván

Well,to be honest ELO is at least as Prog as Asia, Super Furry Animals or Queen, but what kills ELO is their two infamous Discovery and that Disco aberration called Xanadu. This two pieces of crap erased all the good music they made until A New World Record.

I got two ELO DVD's: Zoom (Not really ELO but Jeff Lynn, his girlfriend and some more good musicians) and the Out of The Blues Tour with Discovery videos as bonus material, the first one is very good, the second one is great except for Discovery, each time I listen Last Train to London I feel sick (Sadly the Out of the Blues Tour Concert has terrible sound/video quality and the Discovery part has excellent sound and video quality, what a waste).

Iván

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Thanks EL and Mike, I believe the whole problem is that Mike and I are thinking in different terms.

Progressive Rock definition of Symphonic has substancial differences with Symphonic Metal (Not entering to Prog Metal yet).

Yes, most symphonic Metal bands that I know as Mike said (Which I admit are very few) are just Metal with Orchestra.

Almost as saying ELO is a Symphonic Prog'  band  just because they use cellos, violins, operatic vocals and keyboards, when they are a simply Rock  band that uses Orchestral instruments, because their early structure is pure Rock (being the later pure Disco )

Maybe you're too young to remember, but when I was a kid some guy (Who's name I can't and don't want to remember) released a version of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony in Disco rhythm, some of my friends at school told me that was the kind of Prog' they liked, for God's sake, it was only Disco despite the instrumens and two copied chords from Beethoven, because the structure was clearly Disco.

In Prog and also in what you call Symphonic Prog Metal we talk more about structures (Compositional Tools as you call them) and influences.

So probably the bigest problem you had working with Prog Metal definitions and adapt them to  Progressive Metal was dealing with two diferent conceptions, and sometimes we speak in a different language assuming we're taking about Metal, Prog Metal or Symphonic prog.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Ray Lomas wrote: Going to the point---------> I don't know a heck about prog compared to most people on this forum, but here is a rough suggestion how symphonic prog could be organized. Maidenrulez said that we already have Italian Symphonic Prog. IMO also this is already one sub-genre of symphonic prog. I think it is a good idea that King Crimson should go to Art Rock and be the main band there. I used some ideas from MikeEnRegalia's prog metal organizing. 1. "Classic symphonic prog" (Yes, Genesis, Camel, Steve Hackett, maybe Gentle Giant, maybe Moody Blues, ...) 2. "Orchestral symphonic prog" (ELP, ....) 3. Italian symphonic prog (PFM, Banco, Le Orme, ...) 4. "Dark Symphonic Prog" (Van Der Graaf Generator, ...) 5. "Modern Symphonic Prog" (Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Transatlantic, ...) I'm bad in thinking better names for the sub-genres. So as I said, this is a rough suggestion since this re-organizing seems to be going on. Please don't shoot me. I've been talking about this issue and even send a couple of PM's with similar ideas about this point, but I have some slight changes: The term Symphonic is absolutely  inaccurate to describe what we know as Symphonic Prog, because or it refers to Symphony Orchestra or Symphonies, but the genre is much more than only that, What we know as Symphonic Prog is nothing more than those bands influenced by musical structure from Classical Music from the late XI to XXI Centuries. I don't remember many sumphonies or Symphonic Orchstras in the first five centuries of Classical Music?} But sadly the term is so widely used that's too late to change it, my idea goes to base ouur sub-genres in the main influence that  the bands recieved: Medieval/Gothic Progressive: We're covering all those band like Renaissance, Strawbs, etc that are considered Folk but have also classical structure that were influenced by music from the late XI Century to the XV Century (This includes Gothic era with bands as Par Lindh Project and other Gothic influenced that could be added). Symphonic Prog: Covers all those bands influenced by Music from the Baroque, Classic and even early Modern period (Genesis, Yes, Kansas, etc.) Modern Classical Prog: This would include bands influenced by Classical Musicians from the late XVIII Century up  to today), starting with The Russian Nationalist Movement, this is the place for ELP, The Nice, King Crimson, etc, with very complex structures as the late Romantic Modern Classical but different to all symphonic mobements from earlier periods. Regional Symphonic (Well the name should better change but I'm only giving an idea): This sub.genre could include very influential and peculiar Countries Prog and may be the only sub-genre with sub divisions like: Italian Prog or Italian Symphonic Euro Prog Dutch Euro Prog French Theatrical Symphonic Latin Ameruican Symphonic Not properly sub-sub-genres (because I don't like that idea) but only divisions refering to specific nations or regions with a strong and péculiar Prog' movement. Does anybody have an opinion? Iván

Ivan makes a lot of sense here. I know he has a substantial knowledge of Symphonic prog (among others!), we should ensure his comments are given considerable weight during the discussion.

But in literal terms far more symphonic than most symph prog rock bands, is what I think Mike is saying.

But it's a METAL BAND or not?

Then it's main influence is metal, that's why there's something called Symphonic Metal.

Iván

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Ivan: I really think your definition of Symphonic is always too literal. I don't want to start the discussion all over again though ... I would be interested if Friede or Jean agree with your definition of the word "Symphonic" as in "Symphonic Prog Rock". BTW: Therion would also be a Symphonic band by your definition ...

Mike, a work like this is not done by one person, if there's something I learned during my 20 years of working in various projects is that a group with rigid and more open people works better, all the ideas blend and you get to a central point of agreememnt which almost always is the best.

BTW: Influence is not the only base to work Symphonic or any other genre, butthings must start from some point, and Therion is a Metal band before Symphonic, so their main influence is METAL.

Iván