"elitist avant-proggers"

^ Very good point.

Dean wrote: - (I am certainly receptive to avant garde eventhough I'm probably one of the most pop-centric listeners here)

HughesJB4 wrote: avalanchemaster wrote: what's spineless is you resorting to ad hominem attacks (Atavachron) that are directed at me, merely because I see this thread as counter-productive and rather cyclically boring..... that IS my contribution.  take it or leave it. everything is subjective in this case....my experience has been contributed. elitism exists everywhere.  Your reply was elitist in itself Atavachron.  If elitism means enjoying musically "challenging" or "unpopular" music that is "noise" to some, than call me an elitist....I don't care.  I just know I like the music.  that was my main point.  Less talk, more avant prog! What makes Atavy's post elitist? I don't see it. *suspects that now I question someone calling someone else an elitist, my post will twisting into calling me an elitist too* The problem was, after so many productive posts to this thread, your post was utterly devoid of being constructive, so it's no surprise Atavy reacted in that way to be honest.

it was meant to be "deconstructive" on purpose.  maybe you did not get that.  I am not trying to add anything to the original topic....only that online debates get rather silly.....

Then why not "further the cause" and develop the original argument logically or prove the conjecture wrong and thus refute it. At the present all that has happened since I re-opened this thread is stereotypes have been reinforced and no (for want of a beter word) better arguments have been proposed.

el dingo wrote:   Mr Dingo did read the thread. He chose to agree with the other posters who advocated freedom of choice for all, but added his own musical examples to try and agree with these posters in an individual fashion.   I do not believe my post to be irrelevant to the thread; you and everyone else within the forum are totally free to disagree with me.

Its not about disagreeing. I wish it was. I hope this forum can be a little less about reading basically the same thing over and over. Those endless posts by everyone congratulating eachother on having the same, correct opinion.  I'm so bored I even find Avalanchemaster's stupid/insulting comments slightly refreshing.

Jeje... know I don't have to be here, and that I can just leave.

el dingo wrote: Just found this thread. Hmmm.

Its not enough to just find the thread Mr. Dingo, you need to read some of it too. That would have prevented you to write almost the exact same thing as many posters has done before you.

edit: must not snap at troll.


Edited by russellk - November 18 2008 at 03:59

what's spineless is you resorting to ad hominem attacks (Atavachron) that are directed at me, merely because I see this thread as counter-productive and rather cyclically boring..... that IS my contribution.  take it or leave it.

everything is subjective in this case....my experience has been contributed.

elitism exists everywhere.  Your reply was elitist in itself Atavachron.  If elitism means enjoying musically "challenging" or "unpopular" music that is "noise" to some, than call me an elitist....I don't care.  I just know I like the music.  that was my main point.  Less talk, more avant prog!

I'm sorry guys but I would rather listen to musical masturbation a la Avant Prog than read verbal masturbation ad absurdum as evidenced in this thread!  what a joke!

Thanks everyone.

Anyway, to tie this all back to the original topic, I guess it all goes to say that listening to avant-garde, RIO, zeuhl, etc, doesn't actually make the listener better than those who don't listen to this music. I am also under the impression that there are many fans of this sub-genre who do not suggest this. Evidently there are some who do, but I think to associate elitism with avant-prog is an unfair generalization.

That being said, there is some merit to saying that avant-prog is more complex than many other sub-genres of prog and requires more knowledge to fully understand. I think this is objectively measurable. But again, this does not fully determine the intellect of those who enjoy it. Perhaps if one is simply unable to grasp the music (if it is over their head, so to speak), then yes, this may speak to a lower degree of musical cerebral faculties (or whatever) on their part. However, it is entirely possible for someone to be able to fully understand the music and still dislike it - or for someone to enjoy it even if they have no idea what's going on. So I can certainly understand the angle behind avant-prog elitism, but I completely disagree with it. What I've heard of Zeuhl, RIO, etc, I've thoroughly enjoyed, but let us pretend for a moment that this were not true - suppose I hated it. That would not make my taste in music inferiour. Like Mozart, I appreciate the objective qualities - I just don't like the music.

I'm sorry, I seem to have lost my train of thought. But I think I got the point across, more or less. If not, feel free to ask for clarification on any issue. Or argue. Whichever you'd prefer, really.