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Blacksword 
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Joined: June 22 2004
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 Topic: At what age should you know right from wrong?
Posted: April 08 2009 at 09:27 |
 limeyrob wrote:
I would say quite young but it is all down to parents. Though seeing some parents in action and the example they show I feel very very very very very despondent about the future. We seem to have generated a new thick underclass of society who do not take any responsibility for their actions and think that they can get away with everything and anything.
A train journey into town will see people with their feet up on the seat (despite polite notices asking them not to), not taking their litter with them, sometimes smoking, litter and other rubbish on the railway track, bad language, aggressive behaviour - things that should be the responsibility of parents. It doesn't take much and is certainly cost free. |
'Thick underclass' sums it up, Rob.
They are not 'working class' as they appear to have no sense of pride in who they are and their place in society. We have always had our yobs and trouble makers, of course, but there seems to be some kind of social disease that makes 18 year old boys kick a 20 year old woman to death, just because she is a goth. Kick a 47 year old man to death for asking them leave his wifes car alone, and make kids, little boys attack other kids with knives!
Like rats, the teens hunt in packs; spineless worthless cowards on their own, finding strength only in numbers, and when intoxicated. They act, safe in the knowledge that the legal system is barely worth the paper it's written on. They are untouchable.
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limeyrob
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Posted: April 08 2009 at 05:42 |
I would say quite young but it is all down to parents. Though seeing some parents in action and the example they show I feel very very very very very despondent about the future. We seem to have generated a new thick underclass of society who do not take any responsibility for their actions and think that they can get away with everything and anything.
A train journey into town will see people with their feet up on the seat (despite polite notices asking them not to), not taking their litter with them, sometimes smoking, litter and other rubbish on the railway track, bad language, aggressive behaviour - things that should be the responsibility of parents. It doesn't take much and is certainly cost free.
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Visitor13
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Posted: April 08 2009 at 04:05 |
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Ah, alright then.
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Blacksword
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Joined: June 22 2004
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Posted: April 08 2009 at 03:50 |
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Visitor13
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Posted: April 08 2009 at 03:03 |
Jim Garten wrote:
I don't think he was offended, I think the implication of the post is that if you don't like the way things are done in the UK, one should leave... 
I'm not sure which is worse...  |
This is exactly what I meant. Sorry for being unclear. I was not offended - the "slaps forehead" comment was about my getting the details of the Bulger case all wrong in another post here. Blacksword, most of the threads you start here are about how the UK is getting worse and worse to live in. I suppose things are still not as bad as the media paints them, but I'm just saying it might be a good idea to start looking for another homeland. And you don't really come across as optimistic with regard to your country's future, so...
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Jim Garten
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Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
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Posted: April 08 2009 at 02:45 |
I don't think he was offended, I think the implication of the post is that if you don't like the way things are done in the UK, one should leave...
I'm not sure which is worse...
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
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Posted: April 08 2009 at 02:22 |
Visitor13 wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Visitor13 wrote:
There was this case of two 5-year-olds killing a 3-year-old some 25 (?) years ago. The kids were sentenced to long-term prison sentences, AFAIK, and I think that was over the top. Five is a bit too early, IMO.In this case, the two were old enough.To prison with them, no ifs, no buts.
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I agree, but for how long, do you lock up a ten year old. Five years? Ten? Twenty? Life..?
The UK is notorious for handing out light sentences to very violent ADULT criminals, so kids get handled with 'kid gloves' so to speak. In the early 90's two 11 year olds murdered a two year old who they abducted from a shopping mall in Liverpool. They were out of custody by 17, and were given new identities, homes and jobs. |
(slaps forehead) This is just the case I was referring to, only got the details really wrong. As to the rest of your post, I can have only one bit of advice: pack up and leave. |
What in my post offended or upset you??
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crimhead
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Posted: April 07 2009 at 12:35 |
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The NRA would say once they can hold and fire a rifle or gun.
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Visitor13
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Posted: April 07 2009 at 12:20 |
Blacksword wrote:
Visitor13 wrote:
There was this case of two 5-year-olds killing a 3-year-old some 25 (?) years ago. The kids were sentenced to long-term prison sentences, AFAIK, and I think that was over the top. Five is a bit too early, IMO.In this case, the two were old enough.To prison with them, no ifs, no buts.
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I agree, but for how long, do you lock up a ten year old. Five years? Ten? Twenty? Life..?
The UK is notorious for handing out light sentences to very violent ADULT criminals, so kids get handled with 'kid gloves' so to speak. In the early 90's two 11 year olds murdered a two year old who they abducted from a shopping mall in Liverpool. They were out of custody by 17, and were given new identities, homes and jobs. |
(slaps forehead) This is just the case I was referring to, only got the details really wrong. As to the rest of your post, I can have only one bit of advice: pack up and leave.
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TheCaptain
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Joined: January 04 2009
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Posted: April 07 2009 at 11:55 |
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You should know right from wrong at least by the time you have the physical capacity to carry out said wrong act.
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Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
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omri
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Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
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Points: 1250
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Posted: April 07 2009 at 11:34 |
Blacksword wrote:
Heard on the news this morning that the kids who done this, were in social care, so it's fair to assume that they came from the 'sh!t' to start with.
It diesn't excuse what they done, but goes someway to explaining it. They will be harbouring so much hatred for the world, but wont be mature enough to temper that hatred with any sense of reason or responsibility.
That said, they are clearly dangerous, so lock em up! |
I'll try to be polite but I apologise if I fail. It is well known that children who suffered violence from their parents become later violent parents themselves. They know no other way. If there is a chance to cure such children then I strongly support it. I find it very easy to reject such things when having good wealth and health. Some of those kids live in hell and I feel we should want to help them instead of judging them. Just puting those who were caught in prison will not solve the problem.
I'm sure some of them can not be cured and we should defend ourselves from those but whoever can be helped should get the opportunity to life.
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omri
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Blacksword
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Joined: June 22 2004
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Posted: April 07 2009 at 04:29 |
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Heard on the news this morning that the kids who done this, were in social care, so it's fair to assume that they came from the 'sh!t' to start with.
It diesn't excuse what they done, but goes someway to explaining it. They will be harbouring so much hatred for the world, but wont be mature enough to temper that hatred with any sense of reason or responsibility.
That said, they are clearly dangerous, so lock em up!
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moreitsythanyou
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 17:18 |
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Well according to Kohlberg, there are a few stages of moral development. Young children can use the judgment of avoiding punishment and gaining reward as the motivation for decisions they make. So in a sense, they understand right and wrong but have a rather rudimentary way of perceiving it. In adolescence, morality shifts to upholding social views and expectations, so right and wrong is seen from a larger sense. It isn't until adulthood where people display signs of post-conventional morality where right and wrong are viewed from ideas such as upholding a social contract or eventually when people have their own universal ethical principles.
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 <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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The T
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 17:10 |
stonebeard wrote:
James wrote:
I am not quite sure about the parents being sent down though... it depends on individual circumstances. Some children are just b*****ds, however good the parents are.
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Yeah, it depends, I guess. If it turns out the kids were raised poorly, then the parents should do time as well as the kids, but not as much. These kids shouldn't smell freedom till they're at least 30 though.
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The kids are the ones respondible. The parents should be deprived of their right to continue to raise them if they're proven to be incapable (as they are already proving), but the creatures themselves have to be locked for a good time, maybe for ever. I don't believe a child that is 9 years old and hurts someone with a knife is "innocent". Actually, is the other way around. At that age, children tend to be a little bit annoying but those with good spirit shine through. It used to be just the big dumb stupid bully that punched little kids the reasons for concern... now they're getting knives? Those children are already twisted in their values and taught to do anything they want. The current society that elevates children to a place of absolute untouchability has created this.
They have to be severely evaluated psycologically and then locked away. If necessary, and it will be, until they are too old to cause trouble again.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Location: Malaria
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 11:14 |
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There was a recent case where a mother got sent to prison because their child was a persistent truant. So such things do happen (although not on the same level, of course).
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stonebeard
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Joined: May 27 2005
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 11:10 |
James wrote:
I am not quite sure about the parents being sent down though... it depends on individual circumstances. Some children are just b*****ds, however good the parents are.
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Yeah, it depends, I guess. If it turns out the kids were raised poorly, then the parents should do time as well as the kids, but not as much. These kids shouldn't smell freedom till they're at least 30 though.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 11:06 |
A lot of 9 to 11 year olds (and younger) have mobile 'phones now, Stonie and it is indeed a sad reality. I would not let my children (if I had any) have a mobile 'phone until maybe they were 14 to 16 years and even then, that would be if I felt they were mature enough and they could pay for it themselves. Also, stealing just a small amount of cash and almost worthless items is even sadder still.  However, that's a whole different subject. One of the children is critically ill. That should mean they should be punished even harder. I am not quite sure about the parents being sent down though... it depends on individual circumstances. Some children are just b*****ds, however good the parents are.
Edited by James - April 06 2009 at 16:24
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stonebeard
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Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 11:01 |
They should be sent to a juvenile center for at the minimum 5 years if it is a very strict and hard-ass one, 10-15 years if it is not so much. The 9 year old might get a teensy bit more leniency from me, but that little b*****d would still do at least 4 in an unforgivable center. Also, their parents should do at least 5 years each in a regular prison. (Oh, and if one of the kids dies, the killers need to do at least 20 years each) Also,
The Article wrote:
aged nine and 11 |
The Article wrote:
It is thought their mobile phones, trainers and about £3 in cash were stolen. |
The Article wrote:
mobile phones |
What the hell? They're 9 and 11!
Edit: Know what, f**k it. I knew that ripping up someone and stealing from them way wrong by 9. Both kids deserve at the very minimum 10 years in a tough center.
Edited by stonebeard - April 06 2009 at 11:03
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stonebeard
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Joined: May 27 2005
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 10:58 |
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Edited by stonebeard - April 06 2009 at 11:03
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 09:25 |
I realy don't know how to answer this question. This is a very complicated issue and there are many doubts. Let me share some thoughts :
- I believe (and I might be wrong. We should remember lots of things done in the past like electrical shock is now concidered totally wrong) that most of anyone's personality comes from inside (genes) and society influence on behaviour and not character.
- On the other hand, if someone grows in a home where treated bad how can that one learn what is right ?
- Who do we trust to give license for parenthood ? surely not our governmrnts, right ? They send us to kill the enemy at much older age (and most of us obey, the others tend to skip because of phisical incapability or fear and only rarely refuse for moral reasons).
- Usualy people kill in very unique situations. The chance somebody will kill again is much much lower than the chance that a thief will do it again. So, in terms of the risk to the public killers (and I'm not talking of proffessionals or psychopathics) are less risk (a fact people tend to ignore).
So I guess my answer is - we should check any case to itself and do the right decision for the case. There is no one rule to handle all posibilities.
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omri
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At what age should you know right from wrong?
