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genbanks 
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 Topic: Thoughts on 'Duke'?
Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:15 |
 Blacksword wrote:
genbanks wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
Do you remember Phil Collins giving definition to the seperate crowds? He stated several times that the more commercial Genesis drew a female audience. A large percentage that never exsisted with the trench coat guys who were only interested in the Gabriel line up? I noticed it amongst musicans all around me but, also music fans as well. |
Ok. I'm not saying that there is not two different crowds, simply that maybe there is a third crowd which like more than one of the two phases. Into the Genesis fan universe (I'm not talking about the progressive rock universe) I percieve that many people are in this third group. Maybe they like one more than the other, but not discredit one or the other. |
Of course, and that third group will be comprised of some people who had known the band as a full on prog rock act, and happlily continued to follow them when they changed, and those who discovered Genesis in the 80's, through an interest in prog.
The latter is me. I discovered the band while they were making pop music, but it was my emerging interest in prog that drew me to them. As a result, I have time for both eras, although obviously I much prefer the 1970 - 1980 era, to what followed.
I suppose at the time of Duke (1980) this third group of Genesis fans, may have been smaller than they are now. The Genesis camp may have been divided along more obvious lines, as their music changed quite radically in a short space of time, polarising opinion. Now, in the 21st Cnetury we can look back at their body of work, and cast a critical eye over their evolution as a band, while not feeling the anticipation that a Genesis fan may have felt in 1980 waiting for that next album. We also, perhaps can't appreciate the dissapointment many fans will have inevitably felt at the release of Abacab. I'm probably not explaining myself too well, but I think what I'm trying to say is that the perception of the bands worth in both prog and pop terms may well be different among their younger fans of today, than it was back then. |
Agree with you in many things. In my case I started to listen rock music when I discovered Mama in 1983, and then began to look for the other Genesis stuff, and quickly I was catched just by Three sides live and by Foxtrot at the same time and by the same way. I think you are correct when you say that is not the same thing the feelings about the change on musical direction at the moment it was happened, than when you see it in perspective over the time. Anyway, this third crowd always exists, and it was getting bigger with the time. Many of the Genesis fans enjoy all the band history, and I think that this happens because they always did something else than only pop tracks. In my case, tracks like Dodo, Home by the sea, Domino, Fading lights, Mama, etc., etc. are outstanding and better than almost anything else I could listen from the prog world since 1987 till the present.
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genbanks
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:01 |
Blacksword wrote:
richardh wrote:
I much prefer the production on Duke to ATTWT and WAW which sound compressed. One of the key important aspects of the production of Duke was the snare drum sound which is as good as it gets. Man Of Our Times stands out in this regard. |
I agree. Duke has far superior production to ATTWT. The jury is out on WAW though. I think the glossy production on that album, works quite well on some of the songs, and less well on others. Parts of Eleventh Earl of Mar sound pretty cluttered to me, but Unquiet Slumbers/In that Quiet Earth sounds really dynamic. |
The main thing is in the drum sound, and of course someone likes it more or less. In my case I'm agree with that the drum sound on Duke has more "body" but I don't like much the way in which this drums sound. Someone before said "muffled", and I think that is the right word to describe the drum sound. Other problem in Duke is the electric guitar solos, I percieve them much in the rear. By this way songs like Behind the lines, Misunderstanding or even Duke`s Travels sounds better live, unless in those parts wich involve electric solos.
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Blacksword
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 04:38 |
richardh wrote:
I much prefer the production on Duke to ATTWT and WAW which sound compressed. One of the key important aspects of the production of Duke was the snare drum sound which is as good as it gets. Man Of Our Times stands out in this regard. |
I agree. Duke has far superior production to ATTWT. The jury is out on WAW though. I think the glossy production on that album, works quite well on some of the songs, and less well on others. Parts of Eleventh Earl of Mar sound pretty cluttered to me, but Unquiet Slumbers/In that Quiet Earth sounds really dynamic.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Blacksword
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 04:36 |
genbanks wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
Do you remember Phil Collins giving definition to the seperate crowds? He stated several times that the more commercial Genesis drew a female audience. A large percentage that never exsisted with the trench coat guys who were only interested in the Gabriel line up? I noticed it amongst musicans all around me but, also music fans as well. |
Ok. I'm not saying that there is not two different crowds, simply that maybe there is a third crowd which like more than one of the two phases. Into the Genesis fan universe (I'm not talking about the progressive rock universe) I percieve that many people are in this third group. Maybe they like one more than the other, but not discredit one or the other. |
Of course, and that third group will be comprised of some people who had known the band as a full on prog rock act, and happlily continued to follow them when they changed, and those who discovered Genesis in the 80's, through an interest in prog.
The latter is me. I discovered the band while they were making pop music, but it was my emerging interest in prog that drew me to them. As a result, I have time for both eras, although obviously I much prefer the 1970 - 1980 era, to what followed.
I suppose at the time of Duke (1980) this third group of Genesis fans, may have been smaller than they are now. The Genesis camp may have been divided along more obvious lines, as their music changed quite radically in a short space of time, polarising opinion. Now, in the 21st Cnetury we can look back at their body of work, and cast a critical eye over their evolution as a band, while not feeling the anticipation that a Genesis fan may have felt in 1980 waiting for that next album. We also, perhaps can't appreciate the dissapointment many fans will have inevitably felt at the release of Abacab. I'm probably not explaining myself too well, but I think what I'm trying to say is that the perception of the bands worth in both prog and pop terms may well be different among their younger fans of today, than it was back then.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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richardh
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 01:49 |
I much prefer the production on Duke to ATTWT and WAW which sound compressed. One of the key important aspects of the production of Duke was the snare drum sound which is as good as it gets. Man Of Our Times stands out in this regard.
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genbanks
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:43 |
kjprogger wrote:
Poorly produced (sounds muffled) and a few pure pop songs. BUT, Dukes Travels/Ends is still one of my favorite bits to blast as loud as I can. Behind the Lines/Duchess/AGuide Vocal have stood the test of time as well. Turn it on Again is a great rock song, especially on 3 Sides Live.
Lots of good things about Duke. Very good album. |
I tend to agree with you about the sound, is not bad, but there's something wrong there. ATOTT, W&W and ATTWT have better sound.
Duke's Travels is the best of the album and the best version ever of Turn it on again is in TSL.
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kjprogger
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:38 |
Poorly produced (sounds muffled) and a few pure pop songs. BUT, Dukes Travels/Ends is still one of my favorite bits to blast as loud as I can. Behind the Lines/Duchess/AGuide Vocal have stood the test of time as well. Turn it on Again is a great rock song, especially on 3 Sides Live.
Lots of good things about Duke. Very good album.
Edited by kjprogger - August 02 2010 at 16:38
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esky
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:18 |
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Oh, it's getting stuffy in here. And Then There Were Three is the obvious choice for the boys' attempt to get back to their prog roots (had they ever left them with the previous two albums?). No, Duke (known in some circles in my day as "Puke") was not better than Wind and Wuthering! The albums faults? The bombastic opener Behind the Lines that was refreshingly scaled down for Mr. Collins' first solo album (I refer to him as "Mr." because no matter what his detractors say about him in the Lounge, he's still Phillip Collins); Man Of Our Times which although somewhat of a solid song simply didn't fit in with the Genesis catalog; all the pop that would eventually replace what they had diligently worked for from the beginning. The strengths? Cul-De-Sac with Collins' most forceful vocals on the album; Heathaze, which gets my vote for the best Genesis song, post-Hackett. All in all, I don't generally regard Duke as that go-to album when I want to hear something from the band that's worthy of the time spent to listen to it.
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The Coastliner
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Posted: August 01 2010 at 00:41 |
For a very long time, I was a staunch Gabriel-era supporter and refused to listen to anything past the Lamb. But then I figured "why should I avoid exposing myself to further music that I might like, even if it isn't Gabriel on vocals?" So I inched out towards Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering and found that it was stuff actually worth checking out!
Going beyond Hackett's departure, what really struck me was the entirety of Side 1 of "Shapes". Solid, solid stuff. I would NOT recommend too much listening to Side 2, however.
Edited by The Coastliner - August 01 2010 at 00:42
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CinemaZebra
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Posted: August 01 2010 at 00:23 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
Duke is one of Genesis best post Gabriel albums make no mistake |
Agreed. (but I still hate it)
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halabalushindigus
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Posted: August 01 2010 at 00:19 |
Duke as a last stab.. I get that. The intensity on Dukes Trip is pretty much un-matched and has a nasty attitude.. your on your own kind of thing..its funny cuz its not the sound really but the playing that is quite a build-up..so a last stand Definetly..they knew without Steve there dramatic feel would be lost..let's face it
The album gives me chills every time
200 watts
real clean
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assume the power 1586/14.3
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genbanks
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 23:29 |
TODDLER wrote:
genbanks wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
Do you remember Phil Collins giving definition to the seperate crowds? He stated several times that the more commercial Genesis drew a female audience. A large percentage that never exsisted with the trench coat guys who were only interested in the Gabriel line up? I noticed it amongst musicans all around me but, also music fans as well. |
Ok. I'm not saying that there is not two different crowds, simply that maybe there is a third crowd which like more than one of the two phases. Into the Genesis fan universe (I'm not talking about the progressive rock universe) I percieve that many people are in this third group. Maybe they like one more than the other, but not discredit one or the other. |
Quite interesting to hear this. I was unaware or oblivious to that crowd. It's a positive.  |
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TODDLER
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 15:52 |
genbanks wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
Do you remember Phil Collins giving definition to the seperate crowds? He stated several times that the more commercial Genesis drew a female audience. A large percentage that never exsisted with the trench coat guys who were only interested in the Gabriel line up? I noticed it amongst musicans all around me but, also music fans as well. |
Ok. I'm not saying that there is not two different crowds, simply that maybe there is a third crowd which like more than one of the two phases. Into the Genesis fan universe (I'm not talking about the progressive rock universe) I percieve that many people are in this third group. Maybe they like one more than the other, but not discredit one or the other. |
Quite interesting to hear this. I was unaware or oblivious to that crowd. It's a positive.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 15:46 |
I'm in the fourth group. I could tell you about it but then I'd have to kill you.  
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Snow Dog
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 15:40 |
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^ Thats me.
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genbanks
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 15:39 |
TODDLER wrote:
Do you remember Phil Collins giving definition to the seperate crowds? He stated several times that the more commercial Genesis drew a female audience. A large percentage that never exsisted with the trench coat guys who were only interested in the Gabriel line up? I noticed it amongst musicans all around me but, also music fans as well. |
Ok. I'm not saying that there is not two different crowds, simply that maybe there is a third crowd which like more than one of the two phases. Into the Genesis fan universe (I'm not talking about the progressive rock universe) I percieve that many people are in this third group. Maybe they like one more than the other, but not discredit one or the other.
Edited by genbanks - July 31 2010 at 15:45
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TODDLER
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 14:07 |
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It's quite like throwing a handfull of quarters into the air and observing if they land heads or tails. Obviously, in my area and during road travel in between studio sessions in the big city, ...sound techs that ran recording studios and travelling musicians were disappointed in the new Genesis. You make it sound as if it were the opposite way and it was not really. I was in the thicket of the music business when Genesis changed their style and the reaction was fierce. Maybe the coins fell differently elsewhere but, nevertheless it effected the extremests. Maybe in other states the abundance of a one sided crowd populated over another which was defiante. It was rather extreme in some places because what you are talking about here is a band which took on a new direction in the late 70's. I know you have made reference to a crowd of Genesis fans that grew up on the early material and followed the band up to Calling All Stations.....but there couldn't have been too many in the areas that I travelled. I am only making an observation on what I witnessed in those days and it's interesting to me how fans of Genesis would argue endlessly defending either side and frequently at social gatherings. I always got the impression it was a extreme reaction to a band that was loved by both crowds.
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TODDLER
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 13:42 |
genbanks wrote:
Chris S wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
berger_king wrote:
I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.
I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy. |
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it.
There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans. |
Sorry but I cannot quite agree with your comment of a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans.....
There are many fans that went on to enjoy " Shapes" all the way to " Calling All Stations", even Collins solo works and did not care for the returning of fox head costumes or Slipperman outifits that made it almost impossible for Gabriel to sing on stage. Those fans loved that era just as much, they just did not get so hung up about change. I would argue that IT was poor but still enjoyable but it did not stop fans eagerly purchasing their next studio release. I in fact still argue that WCD or CAS are very much progressive still
So maybe that was a self imploded breakdown of one group of Genesis fans  |
I'm agree with that, and that's my case. A Genesis fan since Tresspass till CAS, and the main thing is that they always did something different than a simple pop hit. They were progressive but not repeating themselves. If you take a look on some Genesis fan sites (The Movement for example) you cann see many fans (I don't know if the most, but not a minority) that enjoy all the band history and not only the early times.
About DUKE I think that was a natural evolving. If the band didn't moved to a more commercial side, they were dissapeared at this time. The main change was with Abacab, and the principal instigator, in my opinion, was Mike Rutherford. He started to like more and more the rough guitar sound. He started in In that quiet earth, then put something in Down and Out and Deep in the Motherlode, then Turn it on again, and finally the riifs took a big place in Abacab, of course with the agree of Tony and Phil. When they knew that they can write succesful tracks, they got confidence and couldn't stop, specially when Phil exploded as a big rock star. But always they did something different, in every albums, and I think that was mainly Tony Banks.
Duke is a good album, not better than ATTWT as an integral piece but with stronger moments. Duke Travels is the best track, but Behind the lines, Duchess, Turn it on again, Heathaze, are really good too. Misunderstanding is excessively pop to my taste and Please don`t ask is Phil Collins and not Genesis (musically too simple and wiht not enough room to the others to collaborate)
About the conceptual side of the album, as other prog colleague said before, I think that the concept exceeds the called "Duke Suite", and seems to be that some kind of relationship between Albert and Duchess (as Phil said in the Lyceum DVD) is not restricted to the suite, appears flying over the overall album. |
Do you remember Phil Collins giving definition to the seperate crowds? He stated several times that the more commercial Genesis drew a female audience. A large percentage that never exsisted with the trench coat guys who were only interested in the Gabriel line up? I noticed it amongst musicans all around me but, also music fans as well.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 13:00 |
Well one version is correct. 
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Anthony
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 12:58 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked.
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Misunderstanding and another song on the album were taken from the list of songs from Phils first solo album. They actually turned down In The Air Tonight. |
That's quite debatable. Phil says they turned down "In the air tonight", along with "If leaving me is easy" and "I missed again", but Tony states that Phil hadn't yet written "In the air tonight" at that moment.
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Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love
(Introitus - The hand that feeds you)
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Thoughts on 'Duke'?
Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me. I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of 