Something should be done about reviews!

There is NO SUCH THING as an "Average Prog Listener".

Certif1ed wrote: You're kidding me, right??? MikeEnRegalia wrote: Why? Every listener is different. I think you won't find two listeners in this forum who would even agree on the top 20 prog albums of all time ... everyone "quantifies" differently.

You surely notice how much the two of us disagree on Meshuggah ... I guess we also disagree on Fantomas, Dillinger Escape Plan etc. Those bands cannot be quantified easily. You can just say "this band sounds like ... well, like no other band I know".

Certif1ed wrote: But that wouldn't be true. Every band can be compared to an other band - it doesn't require that much imagination.  To say it sounds like nothing you know suggests that you are not "well-read" in the genre, or simply lack imagination. Ok ... Fantomas debut album, tell me what other album is similar. I'm waiting ... Meshuggah are easy to quantify - I have already done so. There's much less prog there than you seem to think, and it's easy to hear influences. I'm not familiar with the other bands you mention, but am currently exploring the music of Fantomas. It's not hard to quantify either. Sounds quite arrogant ... "NOTHING is too difficult for me, I can do ANYTHING". No band I've heard to date really causes me any issues in that respect - except, perhaps, Shub-Niggurath and Henry Cow. MikeEnRegalia wrote: Fantomas is impossible to quantify.

You CAN quantify it, but to do so you remove every emotional aspect of their music.

Fantomas albums can be rated anything from 1 to 5 stars, even by trained and experienced musicians. All those ratings can be valid and reasoned for properly. 

I don't think it's helpful to quantify in terms of subgenres (...)

MikeEnRegalia wrote: It's imperative to quantify in terms of subgenres. Newcomers will not begin with obscure albums with very few ratings. They will look at the top 100 list and explore prog from there (at least they should). If you don't quantify on subgenres, but choose the lowest common denominator instead, your review is likely to contain no valuable information at all. Certif1ed wrote: I cannot agree with that - and I've already made my thoughts known. There's nothing imperative about quantifying in terms of subgenres, especially since those subgenres are largely misleading, inaccurate and on the whole, completely wrong! I knew it, Dream Theater are not Prog Metal, and Yes aren't Symphonic Prog. MikeEnRegalia wrote: The subgenres in the archives exist. They are something we have to live with. While a subgenre like "Fusion" really doesn't tell you anything about the music you can expect (example: Zappa), a subgenre like "Progressive Metal" gives you at least some idea.

If you don't quantify on the subgenre, you'll confuse people with extreme ratings.

geezer wrote: I'm always a little hesitated if somebody reviews albums from sub-genres they dislike. It is very hard to review these albums subjectively, like the same way that you would review albums from your favourite sub-genre. My solution is that I don't review albums from sub-genres that I dislike. Simple as that.

 You don't have to like the band, but you have to be a fan of the subgenre. You can try to review genres which you don't like, but IMO that is not helpful to others, no matter how much experience and objectivity the reviewer thinks he has. Those who read a prog metal album review will always be prog metal fans, at least if they read the review in order to find out if they should buy the album.

Some thoughts.

1. I think it's impossible to compare neo-prog with Zeuhl music, or Canterbury to Prog-metal, so for ratings I think we should use a five star rating for masterpieces of the subgenre.

I would assume that many people review albums this way. That's how I at least try to do it.

Yes, me too, but Certif1ed for instance does it differently (and for reasons I understand and apreciate BTW), so rating methods are not uniform

2. Masterpieces of progressive rock can IMO only be considered on basis of a consensus vote for an album, that's why I like the possibility of a sixth star, but this one shouldn't be given by individuals, but calculated from the given reviews/ratings

Not a totally bad idea but there are problems like how many ratings the album should have. I do not see what is the point with this. Doesn't the average rating tell enough?

Yes it tells me enough, but I know statistics (sorry may seem a bit bragging), so I consider myself able to interpret the given data, i'm just suggesting a method that will do the preliminary math, and provide a outcome that's easily understood for those not familiar with statistics (which on this forum I think are few, but still too many)

3. I think ratings should be given on basis of subgenres, for excample I don't like progmetal all that much, but when I review a progmetal album I should review and rate it according to the album's relevance and quality to the subgenre, for excample.
Scenes from a memory - DT, I rate the album myself as 3 stars, I like it but, it's not really my cup of tea, however i do recognise it's significance to the subgenre, adn it is a hallmark album for progressive metal, so when reviewing I probably will give it either 3 stars with a recomendation for progmetal fans, or give it 4 stars, with a warning for prog-purists, I prefer the first option BTW.

I'm always a little hesitated if somebody reviews albums from sub-genres they dislike. It is very hard to review these albums subjectively, like the same way that you would review albums from your favourite sub-genre. My solution is that I don't review albums from sub-genres that I dislike. Simple as that.

I try to do both, haven't been doing a lot of bands I don't like (none to be precies), but I will, I've not encountered a genre I totally dislike, but I will (planning some DT reviews soon, shiver all you metal lovers)

Don't know if someone agrees with me or not, just my opinion.

In my own book of prog the Symphonic Prog subgenre is including more bands than on this website ... Ayreon, Pain Of Salvation, Dream Theater etc. are all Symphonic Prog Metal bands to me, which is a subgenre of Symphonic Prog Rock. But I wouldn't want to enforce that level of categorization on a website like this ...

Certif1ed wrote: Your list doesn't take into account how the album fits into the prog genre (...)

No problem - ratings 4 and 5 are the ones for you. I don't see any problem. 

But your list ratings 1 - 3 are specific to the band, and 4 is specific to a sub-genre which may or may not exist. 

I prefer the use of the word "Masterpiece", even if most people don't seem to know what the word means.

I can and always will feel free to disagree...

The subgenre always exists ... it's just more (Zeuhl) or less (Prog metal) specific. I think that there may be masterpiece albums of prog metal that aren't monumental enough to be considered masterpieces of prog in general. That's where I would use rating 4.

Certif1ed wrote: A newcomer may not be familiar with every band on the site, so it's helpful to know aspects of the music that might appeal to the "Average Prog Listener". (...)

There is NO SUCH THING as an "Average Prog Listener".

You're kidding me, right???

Why? Every listener is different. I think you won't find two listeners in this forum who would even agree on the top 20 prog albums of all time ... everyone "quantifies" differently.

You surely notice how much the two of us disagree on Meshuggah ... I guess we also disagree on Fantomas, Dillinger Escape Plan etc. Those bands cannot be quantified easily. You can just say "this band sounds like ... well, like no other band I know".

But that wouldn't be true. Every band can be compared to an other band - it doesn't require that much imagination.  To say it sounds like nothing you know suggests that you are not "well-read" in the genre, or simply lack imagination.

Meshuggah are easy to quantify - I have already done so. There's much less prog there than you seem to think, and it's easy to hear influences. I'm not familiar with the other bands you mention, but am currently exploring the music of Fantomas. It's not hard to quantify either. No band I've heard to date really causes me any issues in that respect - except, perhaps, Shub-Niggurath and Henry Cow.

Fantomas is impossible to quantify. You CAN quantify it, but to do so you remove every emotional aspect of their music. Fantomas albums can be rated anything from 1 to 5 stars, even by trained and experienced musicians. All those ratings can be valid and reasoned for properly. 

Certif1ed wrote: I don't think it's helpful to quantify in terms of subgenres (...)

It's imperative to quantify in terms of subgenres. Newcomers will not begin with obscure albums with very few ratings. They will look at the top 100 list and explore prog from there (at least they should). If you don't quantify on subgenres, but choose the lowest common denominator instead, your review is likely to contain no valuable information at all.

I cannot agree with that - and I've already made my thoughts known. There's nothing imperative about quantifying in terms of subgenres, especially since those subgenres are largely misleading, inaccurate and on the whole, completely wrong!

The subgenres in the archives exist. They are something we have to live with. While a subgenre like "Fusion" really doesn't tell you anything about the music you can expect (example: Zappa), a subgenre like "Progressive Metal" gives you at least some idea.

The top level genre, "Prog", is much simpler to come to terms with - but even that is disagreed on by most prog fans - so why complicate it further with silly subgenres? It's all Prog. Well. Most if it is...

If you don't quantify on the subgenre, you'll confuse people with extreme ratings. If you rate Scenes From A Memory 5 stars, it's just not appropriate, because there are much better albums in other subgenres like Symphonic Prog Rock. Those albums are more inventive and have a higher artistic level. You CAN rate such an album 5 stars, if you're a fan and want to promote it, but if you are really trying to quantify the quality (sic), you are limited to 4 stars.

I think that ideally, only 1% of all ratings should be 5 stars. And of those, 80% will be from the subgenre Symphonic Prog Rock. But that isn't reality. I would estimate that 25% of all ratings are 5 stars.