? about KC’s Red and Starless

Lofcaudio wrote: Okay, I just bought King Crimson's Red and I am really enjoying it.  In fact, I like it better than my only other KC album, Larks' Tongues.  Song 5 on Red is "Starless."  Is this the same song that is titled "Starless and Bible Black" on the album of the same name, just in a shorter format?

No. "Starless" on "Starless and Bible Black" is an instrumental improvisation. "Starless and Bible Black" from "Red" is composed through and has lyrics.

I love the way Wetton sings the chorus to Starless...  Amazing song.

Baldfriede is almost right, "Starless and Bible Black" the album has the track of the same name on it which is as she says an instrumental improvisation, whereas on "Red" you find the track called "Starless" which features the lyric "...starless and Bible black....."!!! You are quite entitled to be confused!!!

Some more info for you; Crimson of that time were known for their instrumental improvs, some of which worked, some of which didn't. On "Starless and Bible Black", there are 2 improvs, the title track and "Trio", both recorded in Amsterdam, then re-mixed for the studio album. The original, live versions are on a double CD "The Night Watch", which also features the live version of Fracture. On "Red", the improv is "Providence", so named because that's where it was recorded, and the original extended improv is on "The Great Deceiver" 4CD box set. Also, you will notice on S&BB its a 4 piece line up, by the time of Red, David Cross (violin/Mellotron) had left though he still plays on Red - well, on Providence anyhow. "Starless" was meant to feature Cross and he plays it live on "The Great Deceiver" but he'd left by the time they came to record it in the studio so Fripp takes the parts the violin was meant to take.

OK, OK, I'll get my anorak on and go...as you may have guessed I'm a fan of KC from this period. Hope you enjoy the albums.

^ I like Palmer james' lyrics, on the early  live versions of Starless on "Great Deceiver" you can hear they're still developing them....the final version on Red is the best lyrically... 

Well, Wetton only plays on 3 KC albums, so if you like his vocals the obvious choice is "Starless and Bible Black".

Lofcaudio wrote: Thanks Phil.  Good info.  I am still fairly new to King Crimson.  My first introduction to them was the Larks' album which took some time to grow on me.  However, I was digging Red by the third listen.  Much more ear-friendly, wouldn't you agree?  If I were to grab another King Crimson CD, what should it be?  I do like Wetton's vocals (having liked Asia in a former life).

 

If you don't have Starles and Bible Black, I'd reccomend it. While (IMO) the weakest of the three 70's KC albums, it still great.  In The Court is a pretty good one too.

Although some people haev an aversion to Belew, I'd also rccomend Discipline as well. Hope this helps.

Lofcaudio wrote: Thanks Phil.  Good info.  I am still fairly new to King Crimson.  My first introduction to them was the Larks' album which took some time to grow on me.  However, I was digging Red by the third listen.  Much more ear-friendly, wouldn't you agree?  If I were to grab another King Crimson CD, what should it be?  I do like Wetton's vocals (having liked Asia in a former life).

If you don't have the debut, you should really get it.  It's pretty much the standard when it comes to progressive rock.

Phil wrote: Lofcaudio wrote: Thanks Phil.  Good info.  I am still fairly new to King Crimson.  My first introduction to them was the Larks' album which took some time to grow on me.  However, I was digging Red by the third listen.  Much more ear-friendly, wouldn't you agree?  If I were to grab another King Crimson CD, what should it be?  I do like Wetton's vocals (having liked Asia in a former life). As Baldfriede says there were only three (studio) albums that Wetton appeared on. You ought because of its reputation to try their first "In the Court of the Crimson King" which has Greg Lake on vocals; and maybe "Discipline" from 1981 that has Adrian Belew on vocals/guitar, Tony Levin on stick/bass, Bruford drums, plus Fripp - but this is a very different band, nearly wasn't called King Crimson at all! Belew's vocals are a bit of an acquired taste....but if you take to them, you might also like to try "The Power to Believe" from (I think) 2003. Wetton is good live on "The Night Watch" and other live material like "The Great Deceiver". I would certainly recommend The Night Watch, as would I think chopper on this site who's also a fan, its basically the original, untampered, unremastered versions of many of the songs that appear on Starless and Bible Black. Wetton is great on "Easy Money", the lyrics are different (& crude!) from the studio version on larks tongues! Excellent stuff, has an edge the studio versions can't quite match.

Couldn't agree more - The Night Watch would be the first Crimson album I'd rescue from a burning building. In fact, I listen far more to the live albums than to most of the studio efforts these days. Absent Lovers, Vroom Vroom and Heavy ConstruKction are also amazing, and Great Deceiver is the ultimate treat for the dedicated Crim head.

Lofcaudio wrote: Thanks Phil.  Good info.  I am still fairly new to King Crimson.  My first introduction to them was the Larks' album which took some time to grow on me.  However, I was digging Red by the third listen.  Much more ear-friendly, wouldn't you agree?  If I were to grab another King Crimson CD, what should it be?  I do like Wetton's vocals (having liked Asia in a former life).

Well you must know if purchasing (I should say when purchasing) In
the court of the crimson king that it is NOTHING like Wetton era Crimson.
It is a space rock type album that's similar to a "Pink Floyd" type sound.
But if you haven't picked up Starless yet and love Wetton era Crimson, you
must go out immediately and purchase it. It's all about taste with Wetton
era Crimson. Some like Red the most, others Larks and a fewer amount
like Starless the most. My order is:

1. Starless and Bible Black
2. Lark's Tongues In Aspic
3. Red

Red is a great album but they kind of lost the experimentation that was
the driving factor to the first two.

BaldFriede wrote: Lofcaudio wrote: Okay, I just bought King Crimson's Red and I am really enjoying it.  In fact, I like it better than my only other KC album, Larks' Tongues.  Song 5 on Red is "Starless."  Is this the same song that is titled "Starless and Bible Black" on the album of the same name, just in a shorter format? No. "Starless" on "Starless and Bible Black" is an instrumental improvisation. "Starless and Bible Black" from "Red" is composed through and has lyrics.

well you sure got that mixed up...