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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
 Posted: March 05 2006 at 02:28 |
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Yes it's always time to shake trees, but this must be done by gardeners with desire to keep this tree alive. I'm sure that a well known Genesis hate who has denounced corruption without a single argument will take the time to throw down every review that gives Genesis albums more than one star. I know a couple of ELP bashers and a lot of Prog Metal haters, this guys will attacjk everything they don't like. Honestly I wouldn't dare to consider bad any review about a Yes, ELP or King Crimson (Despite I don't like any King Crimson album except ITCOTCK and Red) album (Well except for 5 stars reviews for In the Hot Seat or Brain Salad Perjury aka Re-Works). Some of us love this place, I love Genesis much more han any other band, but I rated a lot of albums higher and made more comlimentary reviews about albums by other bands than for example SEBTP or The Lamb. You know why? Because I love Prog' and I love this site. If i get angry when somebody adds a non Prog band or says that Close to Edge is crap is because I want to keep the genre and Prog Archives alive. I'm sure most of the members will do it, but there are fanboys, flamers and trolls (Not few). The faboys will do anything to take their favorite band to N° 1, the flamers will start problem ecverywhere and the trolls will use the new system to destroy Prog Archives. I believe that at least 20 or 30 guys have been kicked out since I'm here, I'm sure this guys will manage to ruin the place, they will not only rate every reviewer low, but will use 5 or 6 nicks to do it over and over. So lets shake the tree, but trying not to take the roots from the floor because the tree will fall. Iván BTW: Before I came here I made three reviews in Amazon about albums which I felt were horrendous, one of them was ABACAB, the other was Genesis (Shapes) and can't remember the third. In the first two cases I reccomended the people not to waste their money in those aberrations. The three reviews were deleted, so I can't trust that place.
Edited by ivan_2068 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21817 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 03:19 |
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Wow ... thanks guys for the sheer quantity of feedback. Obviously most of you are in some way against this, so I will try to explain why I think that it would work, and how exactly I would implement it in order for it to work. Generally, the point of why I really want this feature is that in order to make good recommendations based on ratings submitted by a community of users, the system needs to know which users you trust. It's probably a good idea to not show the avg rating of users with every review - it might be considered offensive by those reviewers which receive many negative votes. But receiving many negative votes is not a bad thing in itself - and I shouldn't have called it "bad karma" in my previous posts. It merely indicates that the user's ratings and reviews are not as helpful to the MAJORITY of the community than those of others.
No - you can also rate a rating w/o review, The Miracle. Rating a rating is basically you giving a feedback whether you think that this rating is appropriate or not. That's not the same as simply comparing the rating with the rating that you yourself would submit. It boils down to whether you think that the album is controversial, meaning that the album has a high bandwidth of acceptable ratings. Personally I know some albums that are very controversial and basically any rating is acceptable. Then there are albums which I consider to be objectively bad and don't deserve a good rating, and those that I consider to be objectively good and don't deserve a bad rating.
I think that it will be useful. One of the most useful hints about how to find good recommendations that I have read (and posted myself) in this forum is this:
I will build a system which tries to automate that process.
Fair enough ... as I said above, the system has to be simple and effective, so that it doesn't distract people from their main "function" (to provide ratings and reviews).
I found this post very amusing ... I read the list of bands and immediately knew that you were referring to me, mostly because of Heaven's Cry, a band which I hold very high but is virtually unkown to the rest of the prog world. Discussions about the bands you mentioned would be off topic here, I'll only say this:
I wouldn't mind others giving me "bad" karma. I would simply hope that overall more people would give me good karma than bad karma.
Your two favs are Jethro Tull and ELP. Now wouldn't it be great if there was a way for you to get a top 100 list of albums compiled from ratings by reviewers who have a similar taste?
The ratings for reviews would not be shown. Either I will add a button to rate the reviewer ... or I will simply add a controversiality rating for the albums (an idea that I had while writing this post, I'll explain it in more detail later). But in either case the "karma" of a user would not be shown to the general public, at least not in a demeaning way.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21817 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 04:13 |
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Ok guys, here's what I will do: For each album each user will be able to rate the "controversiality" of an album (as a percentage). From that the system can calculate the average controversiality of each album. From the ratings the system also knows the average general rating for the album, and the average user rating for the album (the average compiled from the ratings of the user for the tracks of the album). Now the system can determine the "karma" of each user review on the basis of this user's deviation from the average rating combined with the average controversiality of the album: deviation = abs(avg_general - avg_user) karma = 5 - abs (deviation / max(0.2, avg_controversiality_pct)*14) The deviation ranges from 0 to 14. A high deviation will decrease the karma value, but a high controversiality percentage will lower that effect. For the maximum deviation of 14 (avg: 15 points, user rating: 1 point) the karma will range from 0 (20% controversiality and below) to 4 (100% controversiality). For the minimum deviation (0) the karma is 5. If we do this for every album review, we can compute the user karma as the average of all the reviews of the user. So now we have a karma number from 0 to 5 for each user. We can now use that number as a weight for each track rating of the user. But is it fair to apply karma to each track rating? Edited by MikeEnRegalia |
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Progger
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: April 26 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1188 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 04:23 |
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Hurray, Does this mean that the top ten will no longer be clogged up with *** star Genesis albums!!! |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21817 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 04:31 |
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I will do this on my website ... M@x will decide what happens in the archives. |
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glass house
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 16 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 4986 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 05:43 |
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Mike : I don't know if your idea will work, we will see. I hope her on Pa the collaborators will rate a review before it is posted. If they think it is allright then post it. There are many skillful people here that can do that and who I trust.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21817 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 07:59 |
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That's another topic ... I like the idea, but it sounds a bit like cencorship. |
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 2703 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 09:00 |
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No, it sounds like a terrible bloody censorship in full force!!! You guys sound like you must have been brought up in totalitarian system, and now, being too scared about too much freedom of speach, want your "good old days" back. I am aware that there are always certain individuals who are ready to smoothly provide their censorship, and there always will be crowds "trusting" their beloved leaders (quite skillful by the way) and allowing them to act as they want, no matter what. Funny and quite unbelievable that this is being discussed nowadays on international site devoted to progressive music. Ah, never mind, go ahead, it's interesting to see what happens next... |
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carefulwiththataxe
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21817 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 09:30 |
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I would like that idea if (and only if) the cencorship is limited to abuse. From time to time the front page suffers from a few members who post offensive reviews - and this situation could be helped if new reviews would have to be approved of by a collab (or admin) before they become visible. But of course this would seem like cencorship even if we would approve of 100% of all the reviews, because visitors - knowing how the system works - could never be sure of what's going on behind the scenes. |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 10:02 |
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For what its worth, I think its quite a good idea. Ther are a lot of reviewers who deliberately overrate and underrate albums by either theur favourite bands or baNDS THEY HATE.
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glass house
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 16 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 4986 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 10:54 |
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To Eugene : Your explanation of my words are not at all what I mean. You just twisted them around. You also said, You guys sound like you must have been brought up in totalitarian system, and now, being too scared about too much freedom of speach, want your "good old days" back. Please, if you don't like the idea just say so without the rubbish. By the way, Thanks Snowdog. Edited by glass house |
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 2703 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 11:39 |
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What you said in your own words means "censorship". There is nothing to explain further or to twist around. I do not like this idea, and I said so and explained why. Moreover, I do not like what YOU particularly said, and I explained why, giving you my impression of how it sounded to me. You might not like what I said and you do not have to like it, but to call it rubbish is a bit unpolite from you (to say the least), and might cause unnecessary aggression. So please watch your mouth. Hope everything is clear for you this time.
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carefulwiththataxe
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 12:05 |
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Mike, Slipp3ry I rest my case with this statement:
Guys like this one will only vote to destroy what has been achieved for all of us since 2004. We have grown a very bushy tree, healthy and big, it's ok to shake it to let the rotten leaves and fruits fall, but with guys like this that declare they will shake it to destroy the roots, and this is not acceptable. Iván Edited by ivan_2068 |
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 15:24 |
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Well, I feel free to nail Tales From Topografic Oceans by Yes, to me it sounds as an overambitious and too fragmentic bunch of songs. And And Then There Were Three by Genesis is 50% boring polished pop-prog. Is this too subjective? Am I allowed to write such negative reviews as a progrock specialist? Can progheads still take me serious while writing those negative reviews? I think so, as long as I deliver good and appreciated reviews on this site is my opinion. For me it's that simple.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21817 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 15:38 |
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I now implemented a really simple solution - it occurred to me while I was preparing the algorithm that I explained above. While I may still implement that later, I think that the following solution might suffice:
This is really simple, and it minimizes the effect of odd votes. And it's perfectly fair - the algorithm makes no preferences or anything. What all this means is that the more a rating deviates from the average, the less it's weight will be. So if someone comes along and rates an established 5 star album 1 star, the effect on the average will be negligible. But if more people follow that example and at some point there is a substantial amount of 1 star reviews, the weight will adjust itself. To put it even simpler: The more stable an average is, the less is the impact of new ratings which differ much from that average.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: March 05 2006 at 19:36 |
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I find your system interesting except the rating track by track, this a waste of time, I believe albums are an entity not a mathematical formula, so I agree patially, because if I want to rate aln album with 5 stars, who is the majority to decide my rating is unfair??? If I rate an album with 1 or 5 stars i want them to be counted as that. Still believe is too complex and doesn't cover all aspects of what we shoud try:
So the solution is easier to implement.
This system will give two advantages.
This system requires.
Iván Edited by ivan_2068 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: March 06 2006 at 00:17 |
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That's not a bad idea, Ivan.
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glass house
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 16 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 4986 |
Posted: March 06 2006 at 02:33 |
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Good idea Ivan, isn't the part - The system requires - a bit like mine idea ? Especially the second part. See what the admins think about it !
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20641 |
Posted: March 06 2006 at 06:06 |
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[QUOTE=Snow Dog]For what its worth, I think its quite a good idea. There are a lot of reviewers who deliberately overrate and underrate albums by either their favourite bands or baNDS THEY HATE.[/QUOTE] Agreed with you, this is one of the vicissitude of our system I with my some 1500 reviews am not really concerned about someone challenging my views. I have been attacked/badmouthed (for even putting a three stars review) many times and always managed to defend succesfully what I have written if I am aware someone is attacking me but this means you have to check back on your previous reviews. If you post some 50 reviews, one can actually monitor the reviews attacking your reviews but once you get to spme 300 you lack the time to do so or even worse in my case the will or wish to do so. I must say that if there was not Bob (now with Atkingi) monitoring the reviews, I would have stopped a while ago to review, simply because you do not want your name being plastered over a toilet wall of hate simply because you do not think Snow Goose is not a 5* and someone is hating you for it.
I take great pride to review under my name, which is not a majority of members who "hide" (not meant to be cowardly but rather prudent But having haters
Not that I care so much about my name being trashed (I am fairly thick skinned
And unlike Amazon (which is about selling records and therefore will retrieve any reviews not favorable as Ivan stated, since it will not sell the record - and probably retrieve any bad rating of positive reviews), we are not in the selling business here. We want newly found fans of prog to be directed to the better bands (not to the third division of also-ran) whether they are known or not. Amazon will never propose you to sell a record it cannot easilty get or is widely available , therefore AMAZON has no interest in objectivity (which is what a worthy reviewer tries to reach beyond his particular tastes) Amazong, uh? |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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glass house
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 16 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 4986 |
Posted: March 06 2006 at 06:45 |
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HEAR, HEAR ,
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Ratings for Reviews - A Cure for Abuse?
Topic Options
s1ipp3ry wrote:
) If there's no review, there's nothing to rate.
, because of abusers) under a nickname . Writing under your real name (how to make sure it is your real name is a different matter altoghether
) is proof that you do so with a real honesty (who knows , one day Latimer will one day tell me:" oh you are this guy who wrote that not-so-good review about Snow Goose, care to tell me more?" and then he knives up in the belly
, fanboys
and trolls
already abusing the system , why give them another opportunity to trash reviewers (for the haters), skew the ratings (for the fanboys) and spread unrest (for the trolls). If this guy hates my guts for having given Snow Goose three stars, he might just be tempted to give me a bad profile just to discredit me and you will not trust my reviews on Interference Sardine or Art Bears
