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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 01:25 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Judges are bound, even if slightly, by political reasons. They shouldn't be making a decision that will carry that much impact; they abuse their power as it is.
But a comitte of Judges like the Supreme Court is harder to manipulate, because the charge is for live.
Anyway it's better than allowing 12 guys usually with less education than the average citizen (People can be excused of jury duty if their boss declares they are irreplaceable) to decide if a certain penalty should be apllied to a person.
If you want, the Supreme Court can decide in Death Penalty cases.
I believe the idea of experimenting prisoners is taking consenting prisoners who already have an illness, and trying experimental drugs which have been tested on lab animals, on the prisoner. Not infecting the prisoners with super strains of the AIDS virus simply to observe it.
Well, experimentation is allowed if the prisoner signs a consent, but afterthe treatment he/she must be released and hat's not a solution either.
Iván
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 01:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Judges are bound, even if slightly, by political reasons. They shouldn't be making a decision that will carry that much impact; they abuse their power as it is.
But a comitte of Judges like the Supreme Court is harder to manipulate, because the charge is for live.
Anyway it's better than allowing 12 guys usually with less education than the average citizen (People can be excused of jury duty if their boss declares they are irreplaceable) to decide if a certain penalty should be apllied to a person.
If you want, the Supreme Court can decide in Death Penalty cases.
A federal court involved in state affairs? Can't happen and would be an atrocity. Jury selection isn't perfect but I think it's the more effective route.
I believe the idea of experimenting prisoners is taking consenting prisoners who already have an illness, and trying experimental drugs which have been tested on lab animals, on the prisoner. Not infecting the prisoners with super strains of the AIDS virus simply to observe it.
Well, experimentation is allowed if the prisoner signs a consent, but afterthe treatment he/she must be released and hat's not a solution either.
For fear of billions of dollars of law suites, I'm sure drug companies are plenty sure they're not releasing a new pandemic along with the prisoner.
Iván
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 01:47 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
A federal court involved in state affairs? Can't happen and would be an atrocity. Jury selection isn't perfect but I think it's the more effective route.
I believe it would work, but if you don't want to inolve a Federal Court you can create a Supra State Court for this cases.
I honestly don't trust the jury system, ask O.J. and Wacko Jacko.
For fear of billions of dollars of law suites, I'm sure drug companies are plenty sure they're not releasing a new pandemic along with the prisoner.
That's not my fear (Well partially not), my worst fear is that they will have to release them if they survive to the experimentation.
But Drug companies also make mistakes, take AIDS it doesn't show symptoms for a period of 2 to 10 years (Not assuming the madness that AIDS is a product of an experiment, just an example).
Companies are sued every year for side effects that appear after 5, 10 or 15 years.
Iván
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 01:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
A federal court involved in state affairs? Can't happen and would be an atrocity. Jury selection isn't perfect but I think it's the more effective route.
I believe it would work, but if you don't want to inolve a Federal Court you can create a Supra State Court for this cases.
I honestly don't trust the jury system, ask O.J. and Wacko Jacko.
All capital cases end up going to the state Supreme Court, but again we disagree on a the jury issue. There's plenty of cases of judges messing up too, and pressing their personal agendas. Plessy v Furgeson speaks a volume.
O.J. was poor jury selection, impressionable black women who found O.J. charming and hansom. Also the glove fiasco.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 02:25 |
Equality 7-2521
All capital cases end up going to the state Supreme Court,
My opinion is that all cases in which Death Penalty can be declared, must be seen by a Court of Judges (Not only one).
Not the whole trial but only the penalty to be imposed.
but again we disagree on a the jury issue. There's plenty of cases of judges messing up too, and pressing their personal agendas. Plessy v Furgeson speaks a volume.
Oh man, you had to go back to 1896 to find a wrong Judge decision in a time where slavery had been abolished but still was almost to implememnt it in Lousiana.
Yes there are mistakes by Judges, but a Proffesional Judge is harder to impress by lawyer's theatrics than a jury
O.J. was poor jury selection, impressionable black women who found O.J. charming and hansom. Also the glove fiasco.
That's my point, juries are unreliable IMO.
Iván
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005
Location: Australia
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Points: 195
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 03:29 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
edible_buddha wrote:
Also, most countries around the world have passed laws eliminating the death penalty, this is also regarded as a humane response by those countries, and which is agreed to by the UN. Besides, I said legitimate and serious...
But allow those who admit it to keep it like that, on the other hand every country has passed laws against experimenting with prisoners.
Not true. Torture is still practiced in several countries around the world, some of which includes mutilations of some sort. Also, it is alleged that some prisoners in the 'war against terror' have been specifically flown to those countries for 'interrogation'. There does not seem to be too much protest against this practice... Also, the reason why I wrote that Mengele comment on a previous post was (more than anything) to show just how barbarous Capital Punishment is. I regard both punishments as one and the same as far as being heinous is concerned. However, I would be at a conumdrum if ever i had to be called for jury duty against a perpertrator of repeated acts of paedophilia/torture. At least 'experiments' done to such a person may give information that could save a life further down the track.... The death penalty is even less humane, as it does not even give this (rather minimal) offering.
Hmm. They are not capable of sex, so are you going to eliminate all those who hate, humiliate, and take out revenge... You could be eliminating more ppl than would other wise be called criminals... after all, those who wish some criminals to be killed, esp. if they are not actually affected by the crime (i.e. the relatives of the victims) desire revenge and hate the perpetrator enough to kill him/her... interesting theory.
Please, read well and don't try to reduce everything I say to the absurd, I'm saying that rape in most cases is not a sex crime, most rapists are searching for revenge or moved by hate rather than for sexual desire alone.
All I have said is that a person who kills for revenge and hate deserves to be treated in the same way, regardless of whether the action is backed by the state or not.
What about for medical reasons? Ppl who have no/little control of these impulses are mentally ill (as they dont have control of their facilties), and those whose such impulses cannot be cured would be for medical reasons. If drugs dont work for medicinal purposes, then surgery is often implemented. Something to think of.... ehhh (we're all trying to find solutions)
Yeah here comes Mengele Jr. again, experiment with them, cut heir brains, better kill them.
Hang on... Now you are seeing too much into my words - making it ludicrous. Similiar measures have been looked into for people with parkinsons (for example) to minimise the chronic twitching that is experienced by sufferers. In short, 'adjust' the right nerves, and the twitching ends (Im not a doctor, so I dont have the right terms), increasing their quality of life. The medical reasons comment I have written does need people to perform some research, but is valid for someone with such lack of control that these ppl would otherwise have uncontrolled/criminal 'urges'.
When was the last time u spent a night at a five star hotel room 
Last week, I only travel if my clients pay the best hotel in the town, I believe I'm entoitled to that., but..whats' the point, I pay for that with my legal service, the prisoners just scratch their balls 24/7.
 Okay, my sence of humour is a bit odd.
Not when the prisons are privately owned. This is beginning to become the case here, and I've heard that is the case in the USA... a country that performes capital punishment. The companies that owns the prisons get a substantial profit from what i hear.
Almost no countruy in the world has private prisons, I believe it's more inhuman to make a business of Prisons.
Err... a lot of the comments supporting DP on this thread gives the reason of why should we spend money on these people. Save the money and give them an injection... hmm. (No, u r not the only person to have commented on this) Killing people for saving money isn't making a business in prisons either....Hmmm
N.B. Im actually not a great fan of private prisons either, for the same reason you have expressed, however, I find that life is worth more than money, and that alone would give a reason for finding use for these criminals - maybe a return to 'hard labour' for, say, farming, or manufactoring of componentry (hell, we dont have to pay them any more), and an audit on spending in the prison system (prisoners dont need a color tv in their cells, etc)
True, couldn't agree with you more. The problem is that criminals dont agree with us. Plan B needs to be implemented. (not death - we actually have to think about this). Any suggestions on how to improve the way security businesses and the like use and improve their products, services, etc... Am all ears.
I have a modern seccurity system, if a crook tries to enter to my house he will fry himself, that's prevention.
Cool... Really (Im not being scarcastic). You are not causing damage for the sake of fear revenge or whatever. If a person chooses to ignore the warnings about your security system and your property, then he deserves to feel a bit of pain (thou frying them is a bit drastic) and experience encarceration (apppolllagies about the speeling)
DP is sooo middle age. I thought we were all progressive ppl here. I suppose my biggest message is to think about solutions. If injections dont work, think of something else. Killing is such a simple solution, thats y killers do it.
Sometimes simple iss better. "Civilized" countries have tried alternative methods and none work, at least with Death Penalty you're sure that criminal won't kill again.
You are also certain that someone who hasnt killed won't kill again either. You see, there are quite a few cases that, even with DNA and other 'certain' proofs, dosent mean that this evidence is actually heard. If someone wants you to be killed, they will do so. Such evidences does not necessarily need to be called (except officially)  
You can also get methologies of making A-bombs over the internet. However, i dont see too many terrorists making any thou.
Maybe because plutonium is not easy to buy at drrugstores, but this INTERNET businessmen send you the antidote to your door for a couuple of bucks...Or how do you beloieve so many people get the blue pills?????
Have you any idea how much plutonium is missing... It aint in my hip pocket... but those who happen upon such missing quantities are not being legal, ehhh...
Err, the death penalty is not 100% effective either... after all, there has been quite a few ppl executed who were later found to be innocent of their crimes. This fact is universally accepted. Thanks for the debate thou, am awaiting pt 3.
No, it's not I only approve it in 100% sure cases, like Ted Bundy for example, you need confesion, DNA, physical evidence, etc all together, nopbody should receive death penalty for circumstancial evidence. True, not for circumstancial evidence, however, most cases are circumstantial. Even the oklahoma bomber wasn't a certain case (yes, the guy executed was one of the perpertrators, but what of the others, many suspicions, but now, we will never find the results of any other person participating... Case closed)
And ths penalty should be decided by a comitee of judges not by 12 civilians.
Iván
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Edited by edible_buddha - July 11 2006 at 03:31
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 12:55 |
edible_buddha wrote:
Not true. Torture is still practiced in several countries around the world, some of which includes mutilations of some sort.
Most of which occur in countries with dictators and oppressive Governments not elected by a democratic process.
Also, it is alleged that some prisoners in the 'war against terror' have been specifically flown to those countries for 'interrogation'. There does not seem to be too much protest against this practice...
Well, the fact that it happens doesn't make it legal
Also, the reason why I wrote that Mengele comment on a previous post was (more than anything) to show just how barbarous Capital Punishment is. I regard both punishments as one and the same as far as being heinous is concerned.
I don't because executing a criminal with lethal injectiopn is not the same as xausing him a painful agony.
However, I would be at a conumdrum if ever i had to be called for jury duty against a perpertrator of repeated acts of paedophilia/torture. At least 'experiments' done to such a person may give information that could save a life further down the track.... The death penalty is even less humane, as it does not even give this (rather minimal) offering.
Still I believeexecuting ois one thing, but using them as Guinea Pigs is another.
All I have said is that a person who kills for revenge and hate deserves to be treated in the same way, regardless of whether the action is backed by the state or not.
The State doesn't kill for revenge and hate, it's their way to prevent that person from killing again.
Hang on... Now you are seeing too much into my words - making it ludicrous. Similiar measures have been looked into for people with parkinsons (for example) to minimise the chronic twitching that is experienced by sufferers. In short, 'adjust' the right nerves, and the twitching ends (Im not a doctor, so I dont have the right terms), increasing their quality of life. The medical reasons comment I have written does need people to perform some research, but is valid for someone with such lack of control that these ppl would otherwise have uncontrolled/criminal 'urges'.
Where to stop? Is lobotomy or partial damage to some brain section OK?
Err... a lot of the comments supporting DP on this thread gives the reason of why should we spend money on these people. Save the money and give them an injection... hmm. (No, u r not the only person to have commented on this) Killing people for saving money isn't making a business in prisons either....Hmmm
Seems you don't understand how private proisons work:
- The State sells a prison
- A Private company buys it
- The Government has to pay this company sojkme money for each prisoner they send.
- This money must be enough not only to pay the prisoner's needs but to also leave some profit to the company that buys the prison.
- Ergo, the State is still paying motre than what they receive.
N.B. Im actually not a great fan of private prisons either, for the same reason you have expressed, however, I find that life is worth more than money, and that alone would give a reason for finding use for these criminals - maybe a return to 'hard labour' for, say, farming, or manufactoring of componentry (hell, we dont have to pay them any more), and an audit on spending in the prison system (prisoners dont need a color tv in their cells, etc)
I believe the life of some criminals is wotrth nothing, yhey lost all their rights by their own acts.
Cool... Really (Im not being scarcastic). You are not causing damage for the sake of fear revenge or whatever. If a person chooses to ignore the warnings about your security system and your property, then he deserves to feel a bit of pain (thou frying them is a bit drastic) and experience encarceration (apppolllagies about the speeling)
If there was a Judicial syst4em that fried them for me, I wouldn't have the need to pay my taxes, pay gfor the system of seccurity and having the risk of being sued for attempt of murder of a criminal that's breaking in my house and would probably kill my family if discovered.
Why are my rights lower than the criminal's? I never harmed anybody, not even an animal, I pay my taxes and break my bones working sometimes until past midnight.
You are also certain that someone who hasnt killed won't kill again either.
No but until they don't kill anybody I can't punish them.
You see, there are quite a few cases that, even with DNA and other 'certain' proofs, dosent mean that this evidence is actually heard. If someone wants you to be killed, they will do so. Such evidences does not necessarily need to be called (except officially)  
Be sure that all the evidences are viwed and heard, after that, leave it to the judge or jury depending in the country.
Have you any idea how much plutonium is missing... It aint in my hip pocket... but those who happen upon such missing quantities are not being legal, ehhh...
Oh please!!! Don't be ridiculous, I receive 50 emails offering Viagra each week, I never bought it or need it (Yet ) but I never received a mail offering me Plutonium.
True, not for circumstancial evidence, however, most cases are circumstantial. Even the oklahoma bomber wasn't a certain case (yes, the guy executed was one of the perpertrators, but what of the others, many suspicions, but now, we will never find the results of any other person participating... Case closed)
If the cases are circumstancial, then blame your judicial system, not the penalty.
The California Bomber would have never talked, they are fanatics with the brains washed, but at least you're sure THAT GUY will never kill again.
Iván
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 22:39 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
but again we disagree on a the jury issue. There's plenty of cases of judges messing up too, and pressing their personal agendas. Plessy v Furgeson speaks a volume.
Oh man, you had to go back to 1896 to find a wrong Judge decision in a time where slavery had been abolished but still was almost to implememnt it in Lousiana.
I just used that as the best case. Take Miranda v Arizona, Texas v Johnson, or Roper v Simmons for more recent botches.
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Edited by Equality 7-2521 - July 11 2006 at 22:44
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 23:35 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
None is Judge's mistake, they only acted according to the existing law, the law and/or Constitution suffered changes after this trials but this doesn't mean the act of the judges was illegal in the moment that the previous la existed.
I just used that as the best case. Take Miranda v Arizona
Interesting case,, the Miranda priviledge is used and abused and IMO partially attempts against the international principle "The ignorance of the law is no excuse".
For example, in Perú a law is published (Giving or taking benefits) in the official newspaper "El Peruano", after 16 days (Unless the text of the law changes this lapse) it's mandatory and nobody can claim that he/she wasn't informed.
That the police abused...maybe, but this doesn't make the incrimination less valuable IMO. This decuision undermines the police authority.
At the end Miranda was retrialed and without his confession was still found guilty and served 11 years.
Texas v Johnson,
THIS WAS NOT A MISTAKE OF THE JUDGE, the Texas Statute clearly stated that desecration of a venerated object in public is a crime, TEXAS LAW CLEARLY STATED THAT.
Now, the Supreme Court decided that this statute was not right but didn't even mentioned the Judge, because HE APPLIED THE EXISTING AND APPROVED LAW.
Its simple:
- Judges must enforce the law, like it or not.
- The Texas Statute said that desecrating a venerated object is a crime
- Johnson desecrated the USA flag
- The USA flag is a venerated object
- The judge MUST condemn him.
You may argue that Texas Statute is wrong, well that's a problem of the legislators and The Supreme Court, a Judge can't rule against the law and until declared invalid, the law must be enforced.
or Roper v Simmons
This is anything but a mistake:
Christopher Simmons, who in 1993 at the age of 17, concocted a plan to murder Shirley Crook, bringing two younger friends, Charles Benjamin and John Tessmer, into the plot. The plan was to commit burglary and murder by breaking and entering, tying up a victim, and tossing the victim off a bridge. The three met in the middle of the night; however, Tessmer then dropped out of the plot. Simmons and Benjamin broke into Mrs. Crook's home, bound her hands and covered her eyes. They drove her to a state park and threw her off a bridge. |
I don't care if Simmons was 17 or 70, he was old enough to plan a crime, tie a deffenceless woman's hand, blind her eyes and throw her from a bridge ALIVE.
Justice Scalia, Chief Justice Rehnquist, Justice Thomas and Justice O’Connor in other word 5 of the 9 Supreme Court discented with the rulling as I discent.
Simmons used as an excuse for his appeal the rulling oif the Supreme Court of 2002 (Atkins vs Virginia) that considered that Death Penalty was not appropiate for metally retarded.
Simmons was not a metally retarded, as a fact he had a very high IQ, he planned this crime, one of his partners John Tessmer decided to abandon the plan (Had the same age of Simmons and had enough morality and knowledge to know how heinous was this crime).
BTW: A Jury found them guilty so why in hell you blame the judge? The Judge only applied tha law that stated that the line to avoid death penalty was bellow 16 years.
I believe the mistake was of the 5 Supreme Judges who rulled, even the Chieff Justice discented.
FRY SIMMONS.
The Courts cared more for the rights of a cold blood murderer than in the innocent voictim Mrs Shirley Crook.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 11 2006 at 23:46
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 01:17 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
None is Judge's mistake, they only acted according to the existing law, the law and/or Constitution suffered changes after this trials but this doesn't mean the act of the judges was illegal in the moment that the previous la existed.
I just used that as the best case. Take Miranda v Arizona
Interesting case,, the Miranda priviledge is used and abused and IMO partially attempts against the international principle "The ignorance of the law is no excuse".
For example, in Perú a law is published (Giving or taking benefits) in the official newspaper "El Peruano", after 16 days (Unless the text of the law changes this lapse) it's mandatory and nobody can claim that he/she wasn't informed.
That the police abused...maybe, but this doesn't make the incrimination less valuable IMO. This decuision undermines the police authority.
At the end Miranda was retrialed and without his confession was still found guilty and served 11 years.
There's no constitutional basis for Miranda rights. You do not have to be informed of your rights like you said ignorance is no excuse. Judges were pushing their own agenda. Criminal's rights were for some reason valued very highly.
Texas v Johnson,
THIS WAS NOT A MISTAKE OF THE JUDGE, the Texas Statute clearly stated that desecration of a venerated object in public is a crime, TEXAS LAW CLEARLY STATED THAT.
Now, the Supreme Court decided that this statute was not right but didn't even mentioned the Judge, because HE APPLIED THE EXISTING AND APPROVED LAW.
Its simple:
- Judges must enforce the law, like it or not.
- The Texas Statute said that desecrating a venerated object is a crime
- Johnson desecrated the USA flag
- The USA flag is a venerated object
- The judge MUST condemn him.
You may argue that Texas Statute is wrong, well that's a problem of the legislators and The Supreme Court, a Judge can't rule against the law and until declared invalid, the law must be enforced.
I'm saying it was a mistake of the Supreme Court. The SC ruled that his action was protected under the First Amendment on the grounds that flag burning is a symbolic expression of speech. This is preposterous. Even if this was explicitly or implicitly stated somewhere in the constition an exception can be made for the nation's most sacred symbol.
or Roper v Simmons
This is anything but a mistake:
Christopher Simmons, who in 1993 at the age of 17, concocted a plan to murder Shirley Crook, bringing two younger friends, Charles Benjamin and John Tessmer, into the plot. The plan was to commit burglary and murder by breaking and entering, tying up a victim, and tossing the victim off a bridge. The three met in the middle of the night; however, Tessmer then dropped out of the plot. Simmons and Benjamin broke into Mrs. Crook's home, bound her hands and covered her eyes. They drove her to a state park and threw her off a bridge. |
I don't care if Simmons was 17 or 70, he was old enough to plan a crime, tie a deffenceless woman's hand, blind her eyes and throw her from a bridge ALIVE.
Justice Scalia, Chief Justice Rehnquist, Justice Thomas and Justice O’Connor in other word 5 of the 9 Supreme Court discented with the rulling as I discent.
Simmons used as an excuse for his appeal the rulling oif the Supreme Court of 2002 (Atkins vs Virginia) that considered that Death Penalty was not appropiate for metally retarded.
Simmons was not a metally retarded, as a fact he had a very high IQ, he planned this crime, one of his partners John Tessmer decided to abandon the plan (Had the same age of Simmons and had enough morality and knowledge to know how heinous was this crime).
BTW: A Jury found them guilty so why in hell you blame the judge? The Judge only applied tha law that stated that the line to avoid death penalty was bellow 16 years.
I believe the mistake was of the 5 Supreme Judges who rulled, even the Chieff Justice discented.
FRY SIMMONS.
The Courts cared more for the rights of a cold blood murderer than in the innocent voictim Mrs Shirley Crook.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm disgusted that juvenile executions were outlawed. Yes, I'm against the death penalty but there's clearly a constitutional basis for it. So I see its outlaw here to be an outrage for that reason. In addition to that an arbitrarily selected date shouldn't be the means of judging if a person has the mentality of an adult. That's ridiculous, its a trial issue for the jury to decide. Not for the Supreme Court to dictate to us.
Iván
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 02:58 |
Wow Equality, you have a radical heart beating under a liberal flesh  (Just joking, I disagree but respect your opinion about death penalty).
We agree in two out of three cases:
- I always thought the Miranda Right is an abuse, any reasonable person MUST KNOW at least his/her basic rights unless he's a very young minor or a retarded person. I knew about cases of foreign persons that lived in USA for years (If not decades) were legal, had green card or even citizenship and claimed their Miranda Rights were not respected because they weren't able to understand the rights that were declared by the police officer.......This is absurd, one of my nephews has 6 or 7 years (Son of a cousin) hardrly speaks English yet, but he knows the rights because he heard them on TV.
- Roper vs Simmons: Great to know that you as me agree with the posture of the discenting Justices and Chieff Justice (Not about the death openalty I know), but if those guys were capable of killing in such a terrible way, they should be judged as adults, specially because Simmons had no damage or mental incapacity.
Now in the case of Johnson vs Texas, this one is interesting:
- We agree that the first Judge had to sanction Johnson because the Texas Statute clearly stated that desecrating the USA flag was a crime.
- We agree that despite their agendas, the Supreme Court is capable of making an interpretation of the law and local statutes, so they were in the right to understand flag burning as a civil right protected by the First Ammendment even when I believe it's an offense.
- NOW, THERE IS A MISTAKE.....Johnson was declared guilty of desecrating a symbol and even when the Court could ´reverse that sentence, Johnson should had been sent to trial again because another Texas statute prohibited breaches of the peace and could be used to prevent disturbances without punishing this flag desecration, but the Supreme Court decided that burning a flag (5 votes against 4 and again Rehnquist was in discent) wouldn't be enough to create a breach of the peace.
- THIS IS AN ABUSE OF THE COURT.....The jury and not any court should decide what is a breach of the peace in their community, the Supreme Court went too far.}
It's good to read the vote of Justice Rehnquist (Not Chieff Justice yet I believe);
The American flag, then, throughout more than 200 years of our history, has come to be the visible symbol embodying our Nation. It does not represent the views of any particular political party, and it does not represent any particular political philosophy. The flag is not simply another "idea" or "point of view" competing for recognition in the marketplace of ideas. Millions and millions of Americans regard it with an almost mystical reverence regardless of what sort of social, political, or philosophical beliefs they may have. I cannot agree that the First Amendment invalidates the Act of Congress, and the laws of 48 of the 50 States, which make criminal the public burning of the flag. |
In the botom of your heart you're a radicall.
Iván
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 195
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 08:30 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
edible_buddha wrote:
Most of which occur in countries with dictators and oppressive Governments not elected by a democratic process.
Hang on, to my knowledge the USA is the only democratic country that still practices the death penalty (unless you include iraq - which I personally dont). In fact, the country that practices this punishment more than anyone else is China - hardly democratic...
Well, the fact that it happens doesn't make it legal
No sh*t, but u r not protesting too hard, are you..... (im not being that serious   )...
I don't because executing a criminal with lethal injectiopn is not the same as xausing him a painful agony.
Again, hang on. Didnt you say that a criminal has lost their rights by their own acts??? Then im curious about your concern as it seems to contradict your other comments
Still I believeexecuting ois one thing, but using them as Guinea Pigs is another.
OK, executing is not experimenting... It dosent create any doubt, however, it dosent create any benefits either. The family of the victims would not be concerned about the difference as the perpetrator is being dealt with harshly in any instance.
The State doesn't kill for revenge and hate, it's their way to prevent that person from killing again.
Other countries have dealt with 'extreme' criminals without resorting to death, and, the rate of serious crime in those countries isnt any higher (on average) than those who practice capital punishment. No punishment is perfect, but the more forward thinking are still willing to find and try other systems, even indigenous systems, if it works....
Where to stop? Is lobotomy or partial damage to some brain section OK?
Depends on the circumstance. In the example i have stated, it is for increasing the quality of life for those suffering from a debilitating disease. No, i am not prescribing lobotomy, it has been tried for those suffering schisophrenia, and it does not work.. Full stop.. And who says it needs to open the skull to access the brain. Electrical stimulation to the brain without surgery may just do the trick, and to find a way that the criminal cannot remove the stimulation... As I said, it takes some thought... Ideas are welcome.
Seems you don't understand how private proisons work:
- The State sells a prison
- A Private company buys it
- The Government has to pay this company sojkme money for each prisoner they send.
- This money must be enough not only to pay the prisoner's needs but to also leave some profit to the company that buys the prison.
- Ergo, the State is still paying motre than what they receive.
Ok, I didnt know that the government has to pay a company for the company to have a commodity that the company 'desires'. That might be true, just didn't make sence. However, in any capitalist society, you have to pay for what you want. You are also saying that profits that this company may have is due (entirely?) to payments made by the government. Hell, wish i could run a business like that.
I believe the life of some criminals is wotrth nothing, yhey lost all their rights by their own acts.
If there was a Judicial syst4em that fried them for me, I wouldn't have the need to pay my taxes, pay gfor the system of seccurity and having the risk of being sued for attempt of murder of a criminal that's breaking in my house and would probably kill my family if discovered.
Money, money, money.... And most burgleries dont end up in murder (thou i do concied that some do). The vast majority of those caught in a persons house tend to flee, thou the 'home invasion' also occurs. How do other families cope???
Why are my rights lower than the criminal's? I never harmed anybody, not even an animal, I pay my taxes and break my bones working sometimes until past midnight.
No, im not saying that at all. You have all the rights of freedom, they (rightly) havent. Killing them tends to free them too.
No but until they don't kill anybody I can't punish them.
This goes back to the issue of guilt, and whether we 'get it right'; and also appropriate punishment (we both disagree on the latter issue).
Be sure that all the evidences are viwed and heard, after that, leave it to the judge or jury depending in the country.
How do i do that...... If there are, shall we say, circumstances where all the evidence could not be found, then where would i look. Also, I do trust the judges (the ones that use the law for their decisions, as they r supposed to do), but the jury usually consists of a countries citizens, most of whom will have a strong opinion about the crime, which may colour their judgement.
Oh please!!! Don't be ridiculous, I receive 50 emails offering Viagra each week, I never bought it or need it (Yet ) but I never received a mail offering me Plutonium.
This is a case for concern... What would you do with plutonium. Besides, its not illegal to sell viagra (for certain companies - I couldn't do it, i dont have a licence), but it is illegal to sell plutonium... Im sure the perportrators dont want to get caught. P.S. Glad to hear u dont need viagra  .
If the cases are circumstancial, then blame your judicial system, not the penalty.
The country i live in dosent have the death penalty (Australia), we abolished it in 1966 or 1967, so, the judicial system is of no concern to me in this issue (except for their lax efforts in defending criminals who perform drug trafficing in singapore - again the arguement is contentious (is singapore democratic... ok then 2 countries) and the last case where a criminal was hanged here was later found to be flawed, to say the least.
The California Bomber would have never talked, they are fanatics with the brains washed, but at least you're sure THAT GUY will never kill again.
Most criminals of such crimes dont talk, but quite a few of them are caught... Yes they are fanatics, but there are other leads that could have been followed before closing the book and saying that this guy was the only one...
Iván
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To be honest, I'm actually enjoying this debate that we are having. We obviously have different viewpoints to this issue, which i respect, and that we are defending our stances. I am also glad that we are not getting personal. I find that refreshing. This is a topic that can, currently, not be solved to the wishes of everybody, and will therefore be contentious. I just hope that you are not trying to actually change my opinion (Im not trying to change yours) as everyone has personal reason y they hold the views which they do.
Enjoy.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Teaflax
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1225
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 12:35 |
edible_buddha wrote:
Other countries have dealt with 'extreme' criminals without
resorting to death, and, the rate of serious crime in those countries
isnt any higher (on average) than those who practice capital
punishment. |
Across the board, historically and
geographically, countries with the death penalty have higher rates of
violent crime. It's hard to work out the causality of that, of course,
but it correlates fairly well.
And as for the deterrent effect, none has ever come close to being
proven. The kinds of crimes that usually lead to the death penalty are
rarely premeditated or based on rational decisions, and are usually
carried out by people who don't have a full grasp of the possible
consequences (either due to emotional affectation at the time of the
committing of the crime or generally reduced mental and emotional
faculties).
At a certain point, it actually ups the spiral of violence, since if
someone knows that he's wanted for acts that would most likely condemn
him to death if caught, he has nothing to lose in fighting back with
everything he's got when the police come after him.
Edited by Teaflax - July 12 2006 at 12:35
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 14:31 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Wow Equality, you have a radical heart beating under a liberal flesh  (Just joking, I disagree but respect your opinion about death penalty).
We agree in two out of three cases:
- I always thought the Miranda Right is an abuse, any reasonable person MUST KNOW at least his/her basic rights unless he's a very young minor or a retarded person. I knew about cases of foreign persons that lived in USA for years (If not decades) were legal, had green card or even citizenship and claimed their Miranda Rights were not respected because they weren't able to understand the rights that were declared by the police officer.......This is absurd, one of my nephews has 6 or 7 years (Son of a cousin) hardrly speaks English yet, but he knows the rights because he heard them on TV.
- Roper vs Simmons: Great to know that you as me agree with the posture of the discenting Justices and Chieff Justice (Not about the death openalty I know), but if those guys were capable of killing in such a terrible way, they should be judged as adults, specially because Simmons had no damage or mental incapacity.
Now in the case of Johnson vs Texas, this one is interesting:
- We agree that the first Judge had to sanction Johnson because the Texas Statute clearly stated that desecrating the USA flag was a crime.
- We agree that despite their agendas, the Supreme Court is capable of making an interpretation of the law and local statutes, so they were in the right to understand flag burning as a civil right protected by the First Ammendment even when I believe it's an offense.
- NOW, THERE IS A MISTAKE.....Johnson was declared guilty of desecrating a symbol and even when the Court could ´reverse that sentence, Johnson should had been sent to trial again because another Texas statute prohibited breaches of the peace and could be used to prevent disturbances without punishing this flag desecration, but the Supreme Court decided that burning a flag (5 votes against 4 and again Rehnquist was in discent) wouldn't be enough to create a breach of the peace.
- THIS IS AN ABUSE OF THE COURT.....The jury and not any court should decide what is a breach of the peace in their community, the Supreme Court went too far.}
It's good to read the vote of Justice Rehnquist (Not Chieff Justice yet I believe);
The American flag, then, throughout more than 200 years of our history, has come to be the visible symbol embodying our Nation. It does not represent the views of any particular political party, and it does not represent any particular political philosophy. The flag is not simply another "idea" or "point of view" competing for recognition in the marketplace of ideas. Millions and millions of Americans regard it with an almost mystical reverence regardless of what sort of social, political, or philosophical beliefs they may have. I cannot agree that the First Amendment invalidates the Act of Congress, and the laws of 48 of the 50 States, which make criminal the public burning of the flag. |
In the botom of your heart you're a radicall.
Iván |
I think our political philosophies are very much similar. Like you said we agree on two of those three cases, and in the third the only point we disagree on is their judgement that the action is protected which I can find absolutely no constitutional basis for doing. Our dispute on the death penealty arrises not on a political level, because as I have said I see the constitutional basis for it, but rather at a moral level where I find the action morally in the wrong.
I wouldn't exactly call myself a radical, but I certainly don't see it as an insult.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 19:08 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I think our political philosophies are very much similar. Like you said we agree on two of those three cases, and in the third the only point we disagree on is their judgement that the action is protected which I can find absolutely no constitutional basis for doing.
Not even disagree in the third case,
I know USA Constitution better than the one of my country (It was changed by a "de facto" Government so I refuse to accept it in civil disobedience that will have it's fruit because the new Government will make the previous one valid again in July 28) because I made my thesis using your Constitution in compared Constitutional Law.
I agree, the interpretation of the Constitution is wrong IMO as in yours, this act is not related with freedom of speech.
But, USA Supreme Court has the prerogative of interpretation of the Constitution, so even when it's wrong from our shared perspective the interpretation of the law can be different and for that reason the Authentic Analysis (Done by the authorized institution) is preeminent over ours.
USA Congress has tried to restore that law against desecration of USA FLAG (Not the vague term of symbols) three times and obtained 2/3 in the low camera but didn't passed the Senate.
Our whole differenceis based in the legal value of the interpretation done by The Supreme Court, I may not agree (As a fact I disagree) but it has entire validity from a pure abstract and legal perspective.
Our dispute on the death penealty arrises not on a political level, because as I have said I see the constitutional basis for it, but rather at a moral level where I find the action morally in the wrong.
Agree and respect that, but I enjoyed the debate very much. It's nice when people keep a level of mutual respect, if we can achieve this in such a conflictive issue as life and death, it's hard to believe why sometimes members fight on music.
I wouldn't exactly call myself a radical, but I certainly don't see it as an insult.
Nah.......You are a radical in the bottom of your heart. 
Iván |
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 19:42 |
Well there is no death penalty in Brazil and crime is almost out of control in some places. South Africa also doesn´t have the death penalty and was named the crime capital of the world two years back.
Maybe it works (not having the death penalty) in England and in some European countries, but by saying that having no death penalty means a reduction in crime, that just isn´t the case in all countries.
Edited by RycheMan - July 12 2006 at 19:45
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 13 2006 at 00:15 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I think our political philosophies are very much similar. Like you said we agree on two of those three cases, and in the third the only point we disagree on is their judgement that the action is protected which I can find absolutely no constitutional basis for doing.
Not even disagree in the third case,
I know USA Constitution better than the one of my country (It was changed by a "de facto" Government so I refuse to accept it in civil disobedience that will have it's fruit because the new Government will make the previous one valid again in July 28) because I made my thesis using your Constitution in compared Constitutional Law.
I agree, the interpretation of the Constitution is wrong IMO as in yours, this act is not related with freedom of speech.
But, USA Supreme Court has the prerogative of interpretation of the Constitution, so even when it's wrong from our shared perspective the interpretation of the law can be different and for that reason the Authentic Analysis (Done by the authorized institution) is preeminent over ours.
USA Congress has tried to restore that law against desecration of USA FLAG (Not the vague term of symbols) three times and obtained 2/3 in the low camera but didn't passed the Senate.
Our whole differenceis based in the legal value of the interpretation done by The Supreme Court, I may not agree (As a fact I disagree) but it has entire validity from a pure abstract and legal perspective.
Our dispute on the death penealty arrises not on a political level, because as I have said I see the constitutional basis for it, but rather at a moral level where I find the action morally in the wrong.
Agree and respect that, but I enjoyed the debate very much. It's nice when people keep a level of mutual respect, if we can achieve this in such a conflictive issue as life and death, it's hard to believe why sometimes members fight on music.
I wouldn't exactly call myself a radical, but I certainly don't see it as an insult.
Nah.......You are a radical in the bottom of your heart. 
Iván |
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I agree a very fun debate. Much better than a "Your Top Ten Dream Theater solos" discussion
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: July 13 2006 at 19:22 |
Five reasons to oppose Dream Theater solos?
Slightly more on topic, what right does a judge have to refuse to preside over a case? Can he do this without leaving his post?
Edited by goose - July 13 2006 at 19:24
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 13 2006 at 19:31 |
goose wrote:
Five reasons to oppose Dream Theater solos?
Slightly more on topic, what right does a judge have to refuse to preside over a case? Can he do this without leaving his post? |
I don't know USA law that well for obvious reasons but at least here we have several cause that probably are similar:
- The Judge is related with the plaintiff, defendant, lawyer or prossecutor.
- The Judge has personal interest in the case.
- The judge is an enemy or frend of a relative up to fourth degree (Blood) or second (By law) of enemy of one of the persons involved.
- The Judge has expressed opinion about the case before being named for the trial.
- The Judge has business with one of the parts.
And similar.
Don't know in USA.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 13 2006 at 19:32
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 13 2006 at 22:08 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
goose wrote:
Five reasons to oppose Dream Theater solos?
Slightly more on topic, what right does a judge have to refuse to preside over a case? Can he do this without leaving his post? |
I don't know USA law that well for obvious reasons but at least here we have several cause that probably are similar:
- The Judge is related with the plaintiff, defendant, lawyer or prossecutor.
- The Judge has personal interest in the case.
- The judge is an enemy or frend of a relative up to fourth degree (Blood) or second (By law) of enemy of one of the persons involved.
- The Judge has expressed opinion about the case before being named for the trial.
- The Judge has business with one of the parts.
And similar.
Don't know in USA.
Iván |
In those cases in the US a judge cannot preside over the case. He may chose to not preside if he feels he will sway towards one side.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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