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fungusucantkill ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 26 2005 Location: New Orleans Status: Offline Points: 618 |
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I am a big fan of prog metal and metal itself but the one thing that's starting to happen with all metal types of bands is that they become redundant and unoriginal. I can preety much predict what the next part of any metal song nowadays is going to be its a shame.
wheres the variety?
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The T ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Edited by The T - March 27 2007 at 22:21 |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21820 |
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kazansky ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 24 2006 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 5085 |
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^ sure it is
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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progismylife ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2006 Location: ibreathehelium Status: Offline Points: 15535 |
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Nice post The T.
Hmm there isn't a problem with prog metal. The problem is with the people who don't like prog metal and think it is their sole duty in life to prove it isn't good to people who like it. How would YOU like it if I starting saying Symphonic (or whatever you listen to in hopes to purge prog metal of the title prog) is not progressive at all since they all use keyboards and organs and mellotrons too much and put too much emotion into things... |
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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Cool - a set of debating comments!
*Cracks knuckles*
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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That's not what this thread is about - but I'd be very interested to see your evidence.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65867 |
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If the only thing this thread is about is that some don't care for prog metal, then there isn't much to debate, is there. In fact, there is no problem with prog metal, it's rock that progresses. Now listen to some Indukti and enjoy yourself.. or don't
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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^How, exactly does it progress?
In time?
What separates that from pop music?
From my perspective, it's not about taste - my purpose here is not to bash Prog Metal - I like much that I've heard, and I have never said that it's rubbish as a genre, ever, or that people shouldn't like it - that much is about taste and opinion.
To boil everything I've said into a nutshell - and re-iterate somewhat to cut to the chase - the identifiable and provable "problem" as I perceive it is with form.
Prog Metal as a general rule does not approach formal exploration, which is the basis of Progressive music - hence I think the label "Progressive" is misleading at best, and explains why it's incomparable to Progressive Rock, Progressive Blues, Progressive Jazz and all of the other preceeding progresssive genres, not to mention progressive music in general.
I'm not saying it's bad music - I never have, although I have found almost as much that I don't enjoy as I do enjoy in it - it's just that, as a genre, it's not particularly progressive, and might just as well be pop music. Hence I often wonder why it's even discussed on Prog forums - although it does make up the bulk of discussions and divides camps like almost nothing else, as Mike correctly points out!
See, I'm not necessarily right, it's just that it's going to take hard evidence to dispute the existing hard evidence that most Prog Metal is simply pop music with riffs and knobs on. Research starter points;
For once, Wikipedia isn't bad on form;
Here is some evidence for why lack of attention to form is non-progressive, and in reality, makes pop music;
This article is great at explaining why understanding of form is cool, especially to those who appreciate music from a very broad perspective;
...but libraries are better places for those who really want to get a good counter-argument - particularly the New Grove Encyclopaedia.
Enjoy!
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65867 |
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it has progressed from heavy metal as a form of rock music (Sabbath, Priest), to heavy metal as a progressive form of rock music (Maiden, Voivod), to heavy metal as a progressive form of heavy metal (Liquid Tension, Indukti).. that's all, and it has no real bearing on "prog rock" as most here understand the term, it is simply another genre that has developed past its original form. On the other hand, pop has remained more or less the same; two to three minute songs with a standard format and vocal. In fact, metal (or progmetal) has grown more over the past ten years than jazz, and the fact that there are still regular metal acts doesn't negate the fact that progressive metal itself has evolved. Edited by Atavachron - March 28 2007 at 06:09 |
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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David, I presume you've finally heard Indukti? Did you enjoy it?
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21820 |
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No, it just takes some common sense. Take an album like Scenes From A Memory for instance ... are you honestly claiming that if you take the "riffs" away and the distorted guitars/aggressive vocals, you'd end up with plain pop? It only takes some imagination to see (hear) that it doesn't work for the overture (track #2) to begin with, so your case is already lost. The track has much more parts than a standard pop track (ABACAB / verse / chorus / bridge) and many of the parts reference each other. |
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Thobjorn ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: March 20 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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A) That is stretching it. Perhaps Led Zeppelin sound like Spooky Tooth, but any similarities Judas Priest have to said band are coincidental, I am sure. Early on, Judas Priest were influenced by Led Zeppelin, so perhaps thats what you are hearing, but they evolved past their zeppelin influence pretty early on. B) Those are TERRIBLE bands to form an opinion on metal upon! Napalm Death aren't even metal. First they played Grindcore, and now "Smug Commie with Downs Syndrome"-core. I suggest you check out the Death Metal bands I listed, if you want to hear what death metal sounds like post 1989. |
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"Has it been noticed that in heaven all interesting men are missing? - Just a hint to the women as to where they can find their salvation."
Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Trademark ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 21 2006 Location: oHIo Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
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Having spent many a long year earning an undergrad degree and two masters degrees (1.Theory & Composition and 2. History) in music I have to side with Cert on the issue of Prog-metal and form. I have complete (or complete as of 2004 when I gave up trying to really like PM) catalogues of DT, Fates Warning, Aeyreon, Evergrey, Symphony X, POS, LTE, and more I can't remember off the top of my head. I also have dozens of titles by Zep, Sabbath, Judas Priest, AC/DC, Metallica , and yes even some Blue Cheer and more as well. The use of form by the traditional metal bands sof the 60's & 70's is not noticably different from the majority of the prog metal I have heard. Isolated exceptions occur in both camps ans they always will. For my part, you'll need more than an example or two to convince me that Prog-maetal bands are making any innovations in the area of form. On the issue of form as a basic "tendency" (which is how Cert described it) PM fails at stretching the limits of form. Puffed up pop song forms iare, in fact, the order of the day.
Sorry Mike, but one single example does not cause a case for general tendencies to be lost. There are anomallies in all fields of study. Do you want a real musical analysis of this DT piece? You might be surprised at the result. If you want an actual analysis I'd need a MIDI file of the tune so that I can open it in Finale to actually look at the notes and the form in their natural habitat. And T, Please... The title of this thread invites bashing and yet no one has taken the opportunity to heart. Open a thread with the title "The Problem With Neo" and you wouldn't have to wait 5 posts for the first bash. When you gave your honest opinion of Kaydot you got a similarly heated response from many members. Were you bashing or being disrespectful then? I didn't think so and I thought others over-reacted, just as I see you over-reacting now. IMO You are the one not being respectful and it would appear to go directly against your signature statement. Think things over a bit before you respond to something like this, and then respond with facts that can be verified or at least can be debated, instead of responding with indignant hyperbole. Those of us who have problems with prog metal have attempted, in what I see as really gentle terms, (and specific musical terms) to explain what those problems are. Cert has a problem with form, which from a musical point of view I must agree with. He sees pushing the boundries of existing forms as being a constituent quality of prog-rock. You unfortunately, made contradictory statements with respect to your understanding (or lack of understanding) in this area. First you invite him to "un-dumb" you and then state you'd rather remain an idiot. Which is it? The former is available if you want it, but no one can rob you of your right to the latter. For myself, my main problem with PM is, as I stated earlier in the thread, that the players seem to have no sense of when NOT to play. This spoils it for me, the constancy of playing everything they know wears me out long before the record is over. I like a little more open space in my music and the lack of space robs Prog metal of a lot of the emotional impact it might otherwise have. As I said earlier "everything, all the time" takes away the power to affect one's emotions. Children with a true gift at "manipulation" are NOT the ones you see screaming in restaraunts. The ones with the real gift understand instictively that they have to vary their tactics to get the desired result. For me, PM bands don't understand this concept, and if you want to go into comparitive musical analysis on the issue we can do that. We can find points of referrence for comparison. In another thread some time ago you extolled the virtues of Mahler. If you use mahler as a point of reference for greatness, you would soon see where PM falls flat. Find a frame of comparison and let's look at it rationally. As the list of bands I have sampled tallies in excess of 25 CDs (well over 30 hours of music) I can't accept the "you obviously haven't listened to Prog Metal" argument. I obviously have and I formed my opinion of it's "problems" based on that experience. The fact that my experience and Cert's line up pretty nearly 100% may be coincidence or it may indicate something else; I don't know, but I find it interesting. Edited by Trademark - March 28 2007 at 17:48 |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21820 |
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^ Well, you would not be the first expert in classical music (which is
- in essence - all about form) who doesn't like prog metal, I'm certain
of that.
I don't mind. What I am *not* agreeing with at all is the claim that "stretching the limits of form" is required for a piece of music to be considered to be progressive ... there are many more aspects of prog, and you can't narrow it down to one or two criteria. And to put form above everything else ... sorry, but that's typically something that a classically trained musical theorist would do, which makes it a rather academic point of view. I don't mind at all - but there are other aspects of music too. If form was the most important criterium ... then why is Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon progressive? Surely you're not going to tell me that its form is as complex as a symphony or violin concerto ... But sorry, I know that this is Cert's point ... about *your* main point of criticism, the "over-playing", I have to say that if you really own the entire discography of Dream Theater, you should listen to it again ... of course John Petrucci is not exactly David Gilmour, but he does not "play fast all the time". For example listen to the funky break in Take The Time, or The Silent Man on Awake ... not to mention the calm/slow songs on Scenes from a Memory, or the entire track (masterpiece) Trial of Tears ... also consider the bluesy/atmospheric track Scarred ... the list goes on. |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65867 |
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Trademark ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 21 2006 Location: oHIo Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
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I understand what you're saying perfectly and I agree that form shouldn't be a litmus test for prog. DSOTM doesn't work as an example for me because i have a hard time seeing PF as a prog band as well (partially for reasons of form and partly because they are sort of the opposite of Prog metal, not enough going on to satisfy me), but I get your point. I like a lot of Neo Prog which can hardly be called adventurous in the area of form.
It's been a couple years since I spun any DT, I might have to give it another go. I did quite like A Change Of Seasons and Fate's Warning's PLeasant Shade Of Grey for a few weeks back in 2000 or 2001, they just didn't hold up to repeated listening the way other things do. |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21820 |
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Prog Metal is *not* about faking classical music. It's rooted in the Metal genre, just like Prog Rock is rooted in Rock. If you apply all the formal rules of Classical music to Metal, you'll end up with classical music played with Metal instruments ... which would be interesting soundwise, but totally boring musically. I'm wondering: Why do you still own prog metal albums, like you said above ... if it was all so obviously pointless, why didn't you notice it earlier? For me that all sounds like you're on a pursuit of "perfect music" ... the obvious journey leading from Prog to Jazz and then to Classical ... if that's so then I wish you all the best, but I won't join you. ![]() Edited by MikeEnRegalia - March 28 2007 at 18:15 |
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Trademark ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 21 2006 Location: oHIo Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
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"So your point is that progmetal is more honest than regular prog..["
Actually my point had nothing to do with that. The point is that other prog genrres that show a greater degree of artistry in the use of virtuosity have a much greater emotional impact than those that go "balls to the wall" for extended periods. Both traditional metal (some of which I like at times) and Prog-metal belong to the latter category and, for me, it weakens the emotional impact the music might otherwise have had. "How About Bach?" Bach would be fine. If you look at Bach's music as a catalogue (excluding his keyboard works since they would not be able to be fairly compared to multi-instrumental music) and compare it to Prog-Metal as a catalogue, I think you'll find a lot MORE textural variation and LESS of a requirement for extended virtuoso playing. Bach's writing is relatively simple. His works are played by first and second year music students en masse. My daughter was playing the two part inventions at 13 and she is no virtuoso at the keyboard. Bach valued substance over show and this quality is borne out over the hundreds of copmpositions in his collected works and also reinforces with a hammer the exact point tried to make in my post. Edited by Trademark - March 28 2007 at 18:23 |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21820 |
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I'd like to recommend Heaven's Cry to you ... you can listen to two tracks from their last album for free here: http://www.dvsrecords.com/heavenscry.htm (left side, below the album cover) Let me know what you think about them! ![]() |
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