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Topic ClosedProg cd trades on the Forum?
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micky View Drop Down
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 03:50
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Swapping CDs ... I can't see what should be illegal about that. As long as we're not talking about burned CDs but originals, the swapping is totally fine. I've never heard of any case against people who give away CDs for free (that's what it is - you give your CD to someone for no charge and receive another CD from that person for no charge) ... not here (Germany) and not in the U.S..


I don't either... but while I love busting the balls of lawyers on points of prog...I tend to stay away from debating them on points of law hahhahah Wink   It's probably another of the long list of laws that is on the books but unenforceable ..and rarely if ever applied.  I'm sure the site policy is defined by the law.... not the practical applications of it.  IF it is illegal. it shouldn't be done here I guess
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Points: 21820 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:12
^ then what about the garage sales, or second hand CD stores ... so they're all illegal too?
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micky View Drop Down
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:22
^ (you and your damn arrows LOL)  I'm sure Ivan will tell us, the letter of the law on those items.  Jesus... in the state of Virginia I think Oral Sex is still illegal. AngryLOLWink. god knows what laws are on the books.  That why Ivan needs the additional tag of 'PA's consigliore' LOL

Edited by micky - April 08 2007 at 04:22
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andu View Drop Down
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:29
The international law says that the original owner of the copyright must get a 5% "suite right" from any re-selling of the object he initially created and sold. In my country it is the artist unions that collect these rights. Therefore I assume that re-selling a cd you own without having the copyright owner take his 5% it's illegal. Not like that would matter, but the site can't/mustn't promote that. However donation, mutual donation etc. is OK, I guess.
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Points: 21820 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:50
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

^ (you and your damn arrows LOL)  I'm sure Ivan will tell us, the letter of the law on those items.  Jesus... in the state of Virginia I think Oral Sex is still illegal. AngryLOLWink. god knows what laws are on the books.  That why Ivan needs the additional tag of 'PA's consigliore' LOL


Used CDs are offered on Ebay, Oral Sex is not (at least last time I checked).Wink
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micky View Drop Down
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 05:02
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

^ (you and your damn arrows LOL)  I'm sure Ivan will tell us, the letter of the law on those items.  Jesus... in the state of Virginia I think Oral Sex is still illegal. AngryLOLWink. god knows what laws are on the books.  That why Ivan needs the additional tag of 'PA's consigliore' LOL


Used CDs are offered on Ebay, Oral Sex is not (at least last time I checked).Wink


hmmm.....  leaving that one alone in the spirit of the holiday LOL

but it is so tempting...

andu - again the differences between the written law.. and the practical applications of it. Laws written to protect the artist, but just plain unenforceable.   I do agree though, if it is illegal, it should not sanctioned here.




Edited by micky - April 08 2007 at 05:02
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Points: 1059 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:07
Is there any way of actually finding out, without having to read several books on music copyright laws?
 
"Is there a lawyer in the house?"
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:12
This is 99% sure, donation is free of any obligations. Still I'd wait for Ivan's confirmation.
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Points: 38969 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:23
Here's an interesting article: http://https://tv.ku.edu/news/2005/11/17/cd-buy-back-market-growing/
And another: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/07/business/swap.php

According to US law it is not illegal -- that's why Lala.com (online Cd swapping can exist).  The doctrine of first sale allows people to re-sell and swap CDs or records as they see fit.  But there is an ethical dilemma in encouraging such practices: many people buying a CD rip it, then re-sell it, or swap it.  And the cycle (recycling) continues.  That's copyright infringement.

I think one can get into potential difficulty when swapping CDs across borders (certainly when selling).
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Points: 21820 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:24
Originally posted by Paradox Paradox wrote:

Is there any way of actually finding out, without having to read several books on music copyright laws?
 
"Is there a lawyer in the house?"


You know how the saying goes ... "two lawyers, three opinions". I'm inclined to follow Shakespeare's advice! Wink


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 08 2007 at 07:24
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:27
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Selling new or refurbished CDs or vinyls is hardly an "illegal activity" ... that's not what they meant by "distribution".


If it is, I better stop giving them for birthday and Christmas presents......Wink

Edited by Dick Heath - April 08 2007 at 10:27
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:28
btw what is a 'refurbished' CD?
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Points: 881 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:32
^ Using a CD cleaner on a broken (scratched) CD?

That's my best guess.
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:53
Originally posted by Paradox Paradox wrote:

Is there any way of actually finding out, without having to read several books on music copyright laws?
 
"Is there a lawyer in the house?"


of course we do LOL Two actually that I know of..
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 11:01
There have been similar suggestions before. PA cannot of course accept any responsibility if things go wrong, so beware!
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Points: 21820 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:14
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

btw what is a 'refurbished' CD?


My mistake ... I picked up the word at Ebay.com, but of course it only applies to hardware, like for example CD players. The right word would have been "used".EmbarrassedWink
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:23
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ then what about the garage sales, or second hand CD stores ... so they're all illegal too?
 
One thing is that RIAA doesn't care about and another one is being legal.
 
The only persons allowed to sell CDs, DVDs or Video Games are the stores with licence.
 
Allowing a friend to copy a cassette from your albums is illegal in most of the world (Not in Germany according to the copy of the law you once sent me), of course RIAA can't do a thing about that, but it's illegal.
 
E-Bay pays a licence to sell used stuff, Prog Archive doesn't.
 
Distribution is the act of dispensing something, that's all, in the new FBI warning (The most recent) is clearly stated that you can't even play the DVD in hospitals, curches, public shows, etc and it also says that  lending or trading it is illegal.
 
They normally can't do anything, but if they want to close a place that tells people which albums are bad, so people don't buy them, they will surely sue you even if they loose.
 
Small sites as Prog Archives can't adfford a long legal process against RIAA, so if they sue you, even if they loose, they will place the site in deep trouble.
 
That's a risk I believe we shouldn't take.
 
Iván
 
BTW: Paradox, yes there is one lawyer, moi (I ask excuses for that) and usually work with the Peruvian version of Copyright Office called INDECOPI, most of the rules are identical, being that most countries have signed either the Berne Conventoion or are part of the WIPO that unifies legislation about Copyright.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 08 2007 at 12:48
            
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Points: 21820 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:47
^ ok, have it your way. I'm just very sure that I don't become a "DVD distributor" by selling my used DVD on Ebay ... not even in the USA. Check the US Ebay page for prohibited items: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.html

They don't mention CDs and DVDs at all, except for export/import regulations which indeed are an issue. But it's not like you have to pay an extra fee when selling an used CD which Ebay then hands over to the rights holders. Remember that Ebay is only a marketplace ... they don't sell anything themselves, the members do.

But I agree that if there's any risk involved then PA should not allow it.Smile
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 13:00
^^^ Face it Mike,. the problem even lawyers have is that the law can be interpreted in several different ways.
 
For some people distribution can be selling two or three items, for others there has to be a continuous act.
 
For example in Perú you can have 8 grams of pot for private use, it's not a crime, but if you have more than this amount, you're considered a distributor and you will go to jail, most pot smokers have more than 8 grams but the law is clear.
 
Yes E-Bay pays a fee to be allowed to advertise in their site the selling of copyrighted material (Probably apercentage of what they receive frompropaganda), I know that because here in Perú if you have a barber shop and play the radio, you have to pay to the APDAYC (Peruvian version of RIAA) copyright fees, I know about a person who refused to do that and was almost sued.
 
They charge you everything.
 
Face it, RIAA doesn't need to win a trial, they only need to sue you, send you 556 laewyers, 1'000,000 copies opf documents and you're done because to deal with that you have to hire a legal firm.
 
Legal firms in USA and Canada are very expensive, that's why they hold the pan by the habdle and leave you the hot part, they can afford a two years trial, you cant, they don't need to win in order to vanish you, just suing almost any person is deep sh!t.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 12 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2007 at 13:15
So, used cd stores, pawn shops, and garage sales are all illegal unless you buy a license??  So, if I want to have a yard sale I need to contact the RIAA and buy a license first... Well, god knows they are really poor and really need that money!  Sometimes I really just can't believe how our world has come to the way it is today!  Not that this issue really matters, but it's just reflective of all the other ridiculous things that are happening all around us!  Money is swiftly becoming, if not already, the number one component in destroying our rights and freedoms!!  I think it's so funny that we pay for something legaly... therefore OWN it, but then we are not allowed to sell what we paid for!  I guess in a way it's sort of like you car, house, or land... you don't ever actually own it anyhow, right?

Edited by tonal - April 09 2007 at 13:18
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