| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
MikeEnRegalia 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21812
|
 Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:52 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
If someone comes here, knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, then the recent change means that he will be able to find similar bands more easily. That's what the whole thing is all about. And when he's ready for the more unusual stuff he moves on to the two new categories.
You won't be always there to give him ann advise, plus most of the newbies visit the site once or twice, if they don't find it friendly enough, they never come back.
That's why we'll continue to improve the genre definitions which are always there.
And believe me, three Prog Metals is irrational, there should be only one as every other genre, but that is past, it's done and we need to hope the best for Prog Archives See below ...
Another example of demagogy (look it up at wikipedia ) ... a mild one but still. We create 2 new genres and it took us about 2 years to get there. There is no danger of new genres being created every day.
So we should create ficticious genres every day? There's no reason to expand the genres, it's ilogic, the genres have to be created whebn there's a reason i don't believe there's a reason for three Prog Metals, but i may be wrong
Also see below ...
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
Why not Prog Metal kept as one strong sub-genre, and several schools inside, it's simpler and rational...Or is Prog metal a super genre that deserves more sub-genres than the rest?
Yes, I do think that Prog Metal is a different situation than most of the other genres. It can benefit from a split because during the last 25 years metal bands have discovered more and more different ways or styles to make their music progressive. With about 500 bands a split is a good thing even from a pure numerical standpoint, and except for a handful of bands which are "between the chairs" the three new categories are proving to be quite consistent and logical.
I would support a split of the Symphonic Prog genre too ... if you can find a way to split the genre into a small number of genres which are roughly equally sized and without any major inconsistencies. We found such a solution for prog metal and implemented it ... it wasn't a matter of splitting our genre "at any cost".
Remember the phrase "Divide et Vinces" (You can find it also uin Wikipedia ). i believe in solid, strong and unified sub-genres rather than in weak, divided and with no reason to support that division.
There are many reasons, and most fans of the genre support them.
Perhaps we can get M@x to implement pages which combine genres, for example one which lists all metal genre bands, another one which lists both post rock and post metal, another one which lists RIO/Avant, Krautrock and Zeuhl, one which lists Eclectic Prog and Symphonic Prog etc.. This way we can have the best of both worlds ... people who want specific lists can use the genres, the others can use the combined pages.
This may be done in a small site as your's Mike, but Prog Archives is too big and already has a method that has brought success and reliability. I fail to see why this shouldn't be implemented ... it doesn't require any change in the structure of the website. Just a few additional pages, or even simply a slight change to the current top 100 chart page (introducing checkboxes so you can select more than one genre).
Think outside the box!!!!
Yes, it's a good idea to think a bit outsisde the box, but it's also useful to think a bit in this box called Prog Archives. 
Iván
Agreed ... it doesn't make much sense to think outside the box which is defined by what M@x would really implement. But we can think on the fringes ... 
|
|
|
|
 |
micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
|
Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:38 |
sure HT... they are all metal bands... and all sound the same right?
All have the same style? Let's just drop all the prog bands that
were 'rock' in the same sub-genre while we are at it.
|
|
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
|
bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A² Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
|
Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:32 |
The Art split was needed because of the diversity of styles. The split of metal doesn't make sense to me from of point of sheer logic. Why couldn't the diversity of the bands have been dealt with within the existing sub-genre? They are all still Metal bands. And it seems some of the supporters know this without realizing it.
micky wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
think of it this way; you walk into a record shop that has music in
thoughtful and knowledgeable sections instead of all mixed together,
say it has a large metal section with Tech, Experimental and
traditional progmetal sub-sections where right away you discover
several things you'd been interested in... then you go to a
record shop that lumps rock, pop, metal, psych, punk, and classic prog
all together, and you realize you would've never found that copy of Skullgrid
if you had to look through all the other stuff in the second record
shop. Which place will earn your respect, and where are you more
likely to go next time?
|
don't know whether to kiss you David ( probably not a good idea ) or envy you.
well said.... much better than I could say hahhaha... 
|
And sometimes they don't.
darqdean wrote:
For me, one of the pluses of the splitting of Prog-Metal is that many of the bands weren't related at all. To your average Arcturus or Isis fan, a Dream Theater or Pain Of Salvation CD is a $15 frisbee - and vice versa. |
Not related at all? They aren't all Metal bands?
Oh well. Like I said it is a matter of logic for me, and I am a bit anal about these things. If I see a crooked picture, I have to straighten it. Life goes on.
|
|
|
|
Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24439
|
Posted: October 28 2007 at 04:47 |
darqdean wrote:
For me, one of the pluses of the splitting of Prog-Metal is that many of the bands weren't related at all. To your average Arcturus or Isis fan, a Dream Theater or Pain Of Salvation CD is a $15 frisbee - and vice versa. |
Kudos to you, Dean ... I experienced that yesterday evening, when I started listening to the MP3s on the Tech/Extreme Metal page. In the past, every time I'd tried to listen to those tracks, I ended up being frustrated by the incredible diversity of the bands listed, which didn't allow me to really 'make sense' of the wider subgenre of PM. On the other hand, yesterday I was able to appreciate the subtle (or even more evident) differences amongst the bands belonging to that particular sub, instead of being overwhelmed by music that was far too diverse to be classified together. David's metaphor of the music store is, in my very humble opinion, extremely fitting... I know that every time I go to a mainstream store I have a hard time finding what I may be interested in, because everything going under the handle of 'international pop-rock' is lumped together.... from Yes to Frank Sinatra.
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: October 28 2007 at 01:33 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
If someone comes here, knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, then the recent change means that he will be able to find similar bands more easily. That's what the whole thing is all about. And when he's ready for the more unusual stuff he moves on to the two new categories.
You won't be always there to give him ann advise, plus most of the newbies visit the site once or twice, if they don't find it friendly enough, they never come back.
And believe me, three Prog Metals is irrational, there should be only one as every other genre, but that is past, it's done and we need to hope the best for Prog Archives
Time will tell ... in the meantime we might begin creating schools like you did in Symphonic Prog.
Haven't done it yet and will take some time because of some breaking news that I'm not authorized to tell yet.
What I don't understand about those who constantly criticise genres: If you don't like them, why don't you simply browse the A-Z list? It's not like you *have* to use them.
Hey, I don't criticize genres, I'mhead of one team, I'm in favoutr of genres, I don't agree with three Prog Metals, three Symphonics or Three Neo Progs, that's a different story.
Another example of demagogy (look it up at wikipedia) ... a mild one but still. We create 2 new genres and it took us about 2 years to get there. There is no danger of new genres being created every day.
So we should create ficticious genres every day? There's no reason to expand the genres, it's ilogic, the genres have to be created whebn there's a reason i don't believe there's a reason for three Prog Metals, but i may be wrong
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
Why not Prog Metal kept as one strong sub-genre, and several schools inside, it's simpler and rational...Or is Prog metal a super genre that deserves more sub-genres than the rest?
Remember the phrase "Divide et Vinces" (You can find it also uin Wikipedia ). i believe in solid, strong and unified sub-genres rather than in weak, divided and with no reason to support that division.
Perhaps we can get M@x to implement pages which combine genres, for example one which lists all metal genre bands, another one which lists both post rock and post metal, another one which lists RIO/Avant, Krautrock and Zeuhl, one which lists Eclectic Prog and Symphonic Prog etc.. This way we can have the best of both worlds ... people who want specific lists can use the genres, the others can use the combined pages.
This may be done in a small site as your's Mike, but Prog Archives is too big and already has a method that has brought success and reliability.
Think outside the box!!!!
Yes, it's a good idea to think a bit outsisde the box, but it's also useful to think a bit in this box called Prog Archives.
Iván
|
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 28 2007 at 02:52
|
|
|
|
Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 21:53 |
|
The mutual but unequal transfusion of molecules through a semi - permeable membrane until equally dispersed - " Osmosis" applies to our passion of prog too!!!
|
|
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
|
|
P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:57 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
So lets be sincere, this changes are positive in some cases, but don’t say they are directed for the newbie who will navigate in an endless sea of genres, this multiple sub-genres are for the Proghead who eats, dreams and breathes Progressive Rock, and he’s the only one who will care to investigate the slight difference between crossover and Prog Related.
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
|
|
Hmm...I think to be able to understand Prog Metal you must understand Prog Rock first, because Prog Metal is " son" of Prog Rock, and in the case of that newbie, I just can't do other thing than just recommending him/her some good Prog Rock instead!!
Edited by P.H.P. - October 27 2007 at 20:58
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:54 |
|
For me, one of the pluses of the splitting of Prog-Metal is that many of the bands weren't related at all. To your average Arcturus or Isis fan, a Dream Theater or Pain Of Salvation CD is a $15 frisbee - and vice versa.
|
|
What?
|
|
micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:25 |
Atavachron wrote:
think of it this way; you walk into a record shop that has music in
thoughtful and knowledgeable sections instead of all mixed together,
say it has a large metal section with Tech, Experimental and
traditional progmetal sub-sections where right away you discover
several things you'd been interested in... then you go to a
record shop that lumps rock, pop, metal, psych, punk, and classic prog
all together, and you realize you would've never found that copy of Skullgrid
if you had to look through all the other stuff in the second record
shop. Which place will earn your respect, and where are you more
likely to go next time?
|
don't know whether to kiss you David ( probably not a good idea ) or envy you.
well said.... much better than I could say hahhaha...
|
|
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21812
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:13 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Take for example the Prog Metal newbie, he comes knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, he doesn’t know or care about Experimental Post Metal, Tec/Extreme Prog Metal, he just wants to find bands that are similar, he goes to any other Prog site and finds all of them under Prog Metal, one after the other in alphabetical order, then he comes here and has to dig into three sub-genres that don’t make sense for him, I an afraid he/she will get bored and leave for a simpler place where he can find all the bands together.
If someone comes here, knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, then the recent change means that he will be able to find similar bands more easily. That's what the whole thing is all about. And when he's ready for the more unusual stuff he moves on to the two new categories.
It’s already done and we must accept it and respect the work done by the PM team, but I believe that this is not a positive change.
Time will tell ... in the meantime we might begin creating schools like you did in Symphonic Prog.
When I started to listen Prog I liked Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, PFM, ELP and a couple more bands, I call them all Progressive Music (The term Rock was added later and it’s more accurate), then I discovered neo Prog, that Jethro Tull was Prog Folk or Pink Floyd Psyche/Space Rock, I understand them because I seen the change, but a new guy who comes here and finds three Prog Metals, a Prog Related and a Prog Crossover will have a salad bar in his head. What I don't understand about those who constantly criticise genres: If you don't like them, why don't you simply browse the A-Z list? It's not like you *have* to use them.
Genres should be wide and simple, the simpler, the better, I read people complaining about other sites who have almost 100 sub-genres, we’re going the same way.
Another example of demagogy (look it up at wikipedia) ... a mild one but still. We create 2 new genres and it took us about 2 years to get there. There is no danger of new genres being created every day.
So lets be sincere, this changes are positive in some cases, but don’t say they are directed for the newbie who will navigate in an endless sea of genres, this multiple sub-genres are for the Proghead who eats, dreams and breathes Progressive Rock, and he’s the only one who will care to investigate the slight difference between crossover and Prog Related.
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
I really wish this is for good, but I have my doubts, I believe in wider and simple sub-genres, the less and easy to find, the better.
Iván
Perhaps we can get M@x to implement pages which combine genres, for example one which lists all metal genre bands, another one which lists both post rock and post metal, another one which lists RIO/Avant, Krautrock and Zeuhl, one which lists Eclectic Prog and Symphonic Prog etc.. This way we can have the best of both worlds ... people who want specific lists can use the genres, the others can use the combined pages.
Think outside the box!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:53 |
|
The first one!
|
|
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65844
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:52 |
|
think of it this way; you walk into a record shop that has music in thoughtful and knowledgeable sections instead of all mixed together, say it has a large metal section with Tech, Experimental and traditional progmetal sub-sections where right away you discover several things you'd been interested in... then you go to a record shop that lumps rock, pop, metal, psych, punk, and classic prog all together, and you realize you would've never found that copy of Skullgrid if you had to look through all the other stuff in the second record shop. Which place will earn your respect, and where are you more likely to go next time?
Edited by Atavachron - October 27 2007 at 19:55
|
|
micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:34 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
I dont know why people have to make it seem like
new genres are bad, with the recent metal brake up, more bands
will be recognizized and appreciated.
|
that should be the point here shouldn't it. Never quite
understood the problem with new subs either. I find it funny to
be be worried more about how this site looks to others... rather than
the people who actually come here and use our site hahhaha. Come
here to try to find new prog bands and explore prog. If
having 500 bands tucked into one large sub-genre makes it easier for
those down the ladder a bit to be recognized and appreciated.. I'll eat
my hat. Splitting them up might not gain them legions of fans
here.. but it WILL make them easier to find at least. That my
friends.. is a good change.
my two cents. Just a difference in seeing things of course
|
|
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
|
Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:26 |
I dont know why people have to make it seem like new genres are bad, with the recent metal brake up, more bands will be recognizized and appreciated.
In the old PM genre there was none of these bands in the top twenty:
Isis
Death
Anathema
Atheist
Kayo Dot
Deadsoul tribe ect ect..
Those bands will be recognized faster and popularity will grow.
|
|
|
|
P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:16 |
stonebeard wrote:
PHP, you seem to be a very traditional progger, which is not bad in itself. A lot of ProgArchives' additions have been very controversial, and no one will agree on everything. Also, if the site owners (who lurk in the shadows, carrying on with their "lives" and such) want a band in, they're in. I believe this was the case with Zep and the Beatles. But note their categories; they're considered related (tricky term) to prog, or highly influential to it. The site has an inclusive position (sometimes I personally wonder if too inclusive), but no decisions are made irrationally. We trust collabs who know controversial artists well to be as little biased as possible in their input for additions. No one want to make the site look like a joke by adding his favorite artists by the most meager of connections.
|
You spotted very good points I missed...I've been thinking and seeing those 2 last lines for some time now...I think some people could find pleasure or something doing that...
Edited by P.H.P. - October 27 2007 at 19:16
|
|
Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:09 |
Let's try and prevent the Report Button from getting red hot tonight please people. It's Midnight here in the UK and I'm trying to watch South Park.
|
|
stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:08 |
|
PHP, you seem to be a very traditional progger, which is not bad in itself. A lot of ProgArchives' additions have been very controversial, and no one will agree on everything. Also, if the site owners (who lurk in the shadows, carrying on with their "lives" and such) want a band in, they're in. I believe this was the case with Zep and the Beatles. But note their categories; they're considered related (tricky term) to prog, or highly influential to it. The site has an inclusive position (sometimes I personally wonder if too inclusive), but no decisions are made irrationally. We trust collabs who know controversial artists well to be as little biased as possible in their input for additions. No one want to make the site look like a joke by adding his favorite artists by the most meager of connections.
|
|
|
|
micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:01 |
P.H.P. wrote:
I agree, well said Iván.
maybe the changes in metal or "post" sections are intended to "justify" being too much inclusive and really objectable many times...or to just make it look like if it was "normal" or widely accepted by Prog-heads...
|
Ivan's post was well stated and was valid in his concerns and points...
yours though... reeks of stirring sh*t up. The problem isn't the genre
teams... it is those who can't accept others have different notions of
what is.. and is not prog. The site is inclusive. We all want everyone to stay and be happy though We all have our different visions of the site... but
all are made with the best interests in the site in mind... not trying
to justify inclusions that some might find objectionable.
Edited by micky - October 27 2007 at 19:11
|
|
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
|
P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 18:55 |
I agree, well said Iván. maybe the changes in metal or "post" sections are intended to "justify" being too much inclusive and really objectable many times...or to just make it look like if it was "normal" or widely accepted by Prog-heads...
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: October 27 2007 at 18:41 |
russellk wrote:
I take micky's point, though. The categories aren't for the experienced proghead, but for the newbie. And they cause endless debate because so many of them cross whatever boundaries we try to impose on them.
|
I absolutely disagree, the sub-genres, categories and styles are not for the newbie who comes with knowledge of one or two bands he like, the sub-genres are for the experienced Proghead who wants to research more than the average fan and investigate influences, sounds and styles.
Yes, I like to research for influences, eras, sounds, schools, because I’m a fan of Progressive Rock, but the new user wants to find some bands and gives a damn for 20 artificial divisions, he knows all the bands related to Metal are in prog Metal, and wants to find that.
Take for example the Prog Metal newbie, he comes knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, he doesn’t know or care about Experimental Post Metal, Tec/Extreme Prog Metal, he just wants to find bands that are similar, he goes to any other Prog site and finds all of them under Prog Metal, one after the other in alphabetical order, then he comes here and has to dig into three sub-genres that don’t make sense for him, I an afraid he/she will get bored and leave for a simpler place where he can find all the bands together.
It’s already done and we must accept it and respect the work done by the PM team, but I believe that this is not a positive change.
When I started to listen Prog I liked Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, PFM, ELP and a couple more bands, I call them all Progressive Music (The term Rock was added later and it’s more accurate), then I discovered neo Prog, that Jethro Tull was Prog Folk or Pink Floyd Psyche/Space Rock, I understand them because I seen the change, but a new guy who comes here and finds three Prog Metals, a Prog Related and a Prog Crossover will have a salad bar in his head.
Genres should be wide and simple, the simpler, the better, I read people complaining about other sites who have almost 100 sub-genres, we’re going the same way.
So lets be sincere, this changes are positive in some cases, but don’t say they are directed for the newbie who will navigate in an endless sea of genres, this multiple sub-genres are for the Proghead who eats, dreams and breathes Progressive Rock, and he’s the only one who will care to investigate the slight difference between crossover and Prog Related.
I really wish this is for good, but I have my doubts, I believe in wider and simple sub-genres, the less and easy to find, the better.
Iván
|
|
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Are you stubborn about the genre changes?
