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TGM: Orb 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
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 Posted: April 12 2008 at 19:24 |
 And about nursery cryme .... well :whats wrong about this album is
that it has clearly 3 amazing songs already named, but the rest of the
stuff is not up to the 4.39 rating that the record has. |
Depends on the person. I prefer Harold The Barrel and Harlequin to Return Of The Giant Hogweed, and think that those two, while short, are still masterpiece-level tracks in their own right. Very divisive album. However, I agree completely with King By-Tor's post above.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 19:31 |
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LinusW
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:20 |
You deserve everything, Cacho. Haven't been impressed by the beating you've been exposed to lately. Especially that from Sqounkman. No matter what he might counter with, I'll still be on your side 
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:27 |
King By-Tor wrote:
You don't have to like every album...
Just because an album has a high rating doesn't mean that everyone is going to like it.
Come on! People are allowed to have their own taste. No one should be ridiculed or questioned simply
because they dislike an album that someone else likes. There's no use n forcing yourself to like something
just because other people do. People like what people like and they dislike what they dislike. Don't
downcast someone for their tastes.
Not to mention that the argument "you don't like it then you don't know what you're talking about" is simply
rubish. Tastes are tastes are tastes. Give the guy a break, forcing your opinions about the albums on him
aren't likely going to change his opinions on them.
If one of you said that you didn't like Rush's Moving Pictures I wouldn't attack you with logic that says
"comform!" I would accept that (again) your tastes are different than mine!
Finally! Age has nothing to do with it! How many 14 year olds do you know that listen to Prog? I know only
Cacho. Everyone else that age is out in front of Church's chicken pretending to be gangsters and listening
to Fitty-cent. I'll give a solid  to Cacho for knowing what he likes (in his wardrobe).
End of rant.
PS - I will surely receive flak for this post. |
if these comments were directed at me, you completey misunderstood and misinterpreted my post(s). Nowhere did I ever tell someone what albums they should or should not like. I merely suggested the very real and practical observation and experience that when you are a teenager (to keep this generic), with a limited pallette of a musical background and experiences, your tastes are still forming and developing. What you like when you are 14 in most cases won't be anything close to what you like when you are 24, 34, 44 etc. So to label albums you only recently heard, after just barely dipping your toe in the deep waters of prog for a few minutes relatively speaking, as "disappointing" is somewhat a meaningless and vacuous exercise when you have very little to compare them with. Which is why I asked, disappointing in comparison to what? Not everyone of every age is going to be immediately ready to appreciate and understand all facets of progressive rock. I would hardly recommend someone to delve into the operatic Italian symphonic genre or the Zuehl genre completely cold with very little musical background or listening experience no matter what age, much less expect an adolescent "get" and appreciate such music. There is a learning curve to conquer and there is nothing wrong with that. It takes years in some cases to come around and appreciate an album or a type of music. To suggest that telling someone so young to go slow and take the time to appreciate and listen instead of immediately rejecting well recieved classics of prog and labeling them a "disappointment" is somehow forcing an opinion or constitutes bad advice is ludicrous.
Again, to make the analogy as plainly and simply as possible, at the risk of overstatement, you should conquer Dr Suess before you go labeling Homer's Iliad a "disappointment".
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LinusW
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:29 |
^^
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:32 |
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nothing ;P
Edited by laplace - April 12 2008 at 20:39
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LinusW
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:34 |
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Snonk wiru jopahnf. Sklfpjoa indeed. låJpfjåpa. Yup.
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:38 |
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I didn't really mean to post that last post. ;P
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:50 |
LinusW wrote:
Snonk wiru jopahnf. Sklfpjoa indeed. låJpfjåpa. Yup. |
bwwwhhaaahaa, that's pretty good. 
Your Swedish is a little rusty, but that's ok.
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LinusW
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665
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Posted: April 12 2008 at 21:09 |
^^ It's the result of a very late night out. Not the best of signs when I manage to express myself in English, but not in Swedish, though...
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 03:29 |
Squonkman wrote:
if these comments were directed at me, you completey misunderstood and misinterpreted my post(s). Nowhere did I ever tell someone what albums they should or should not like. I merely suggested the very real and practical observation and experience that when you are a teenager (to keep this generic), with a limited pallette of a musical background and experiences, your tastes are still forming and developing. What you like when you are 14 in most cases won't be anything close to what you like when you are 24, 34, 44 etc. So to label albums you only recently heard, after just barely dipping your toe in the deep waters of prog for a few minutes relatively speaking, as "disappointing" is somewhat a meaningless and vacuous exercise when you have very little to compare them with. Which is why I asked, disappointing in comparison to what? Not everyone of every age is going to be immediately ready to appreciate and understand all facets of progressive rock. I would hardly recommend someone to delve into the operatic Italian symphonic genre or the Zuehl genre completely cold with very little musical background or listening experience no matter what age, much less expect an adolescent "get" and appreciate such music. There is a learning curve to conquer and there is nothing wrong with that. It takes years in some cases to come around and appreciate an album or a type of music. To suggest that telling someone so young to go slow and take the time to appreciate and listen instead of immediately rejecting well recieved classics of prog and labeling them a "disappointment" is somehow forcing an opinion or constitutes bad advice is ludicrous.
Again, to make the analogy as plainly and simply as possible, at the risk of overstatement, you should conquer Dr Suess before you go labeling Homer's Iliad a "disappointment". |
Oh, okay, so young people aren't allowed to listen to prog. I got it. Just because he didn't like something off the first spin (a disappointment) doesn't mean that's he's not going to revisit the album when he's 24 or 34 or 44 and think different things about it each times. To me Foxtrot was a severe disappointment. But I still gave it a five star review after letting it sink in. Sorry if I'm still missing your "point", but from most of the posts I've seen from you here you just don't like the idea of a younger generation picking up on the music that you cherish so much (and deservedly so) but thinking different things about it. That's what I'm getting anyways. Am I wrong?
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 16:51 |
I agree with what King By-Tor said , besides you do not have the slightest idea of how hard is for a young guy to like prog in Argentina.He has a lot of merit
Probably in Europe and the States is a little easier becouse you have a more varied musical offer. I mean Robert Plant may not be in his prime but he is still there , the same with David Gilmour.We need to wait for a chance to see them and , as the market is not that big we have missed chances to see Rush as an example.
If I were to describe our musical fauna i would have to say that:
1-There are plenty of Rolling Stones wannbees with no skill
2-Commercial radio has those Latin singers from foreign countries
3-Our rock mucisians tend to include lots of latin american , danceable patterns on the music (But not on the Caransaverai way) Check "Los fabulosos Cadillacs" and "Bersuit" if you have the guts
4-We have a singer called "Andres Calamaro" who is called a genius.However he stole everything but the lyrics to Bob Dylan.
5-Gradually concerts are seen as an extension of a football match You have to stand for your band and defend it as if it were a team. I think that football and music are 2 very different things and must not be mixed
6-There is a punk rock scene that still thinks that we are in 1976 with all that anarchy cliche
7-There is a heavy metal scene , personally I think metal should be sang in English
8-The average argentinian is very close-minded and shows no respect for music diversity.If the band is formed by old and ugly guys (Also foreign , becouse the average argentinian is very nationalyst).Then the band will be automatically cassified as crap, and the listener as a geek.
Our country is getting more "latin-americanish" as time goes by , which is NOT a good thing.I mean "music is just to dance and score".
I have tons of reasons but I ll stop here
Edited by crimson87 - April 13 2008 at 16:55
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7168
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 17:25 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Fora disappointment it must mean that the new album fails to meet an expectation built on the previous works. So album frol Yes or gensis in the 80's cannot fit in this thread, since we all knew the groups were crap
Eventually another kind of disappointment is some album not meeting its reputation or the recommendations of friends or sites.
I'll work on the lists of both cases in the followingdays |
 well said Hugues! Based on that, I'd nominate:
- Pink Floyd - The Wall
- Yes - Tales From Topographic Oceans
- Jethro Tull - A Passion Play
- Magma - Merci
- Soft Machine - Land of Cockayne
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 17:33 |
King By-Tor wrote:
Squonkman wrote:
if these comments were directed at me, you completey misunderstood and misinterpreted my post(s). Nowhere did I ever tell someone what albums they should or should not like. I merely suggested the very real and practical observation and experience that when you are a teenager (to keep this generic), with a limited pallette of a musical background and experiences, your tastes are still forming and developing. What you like when you are 14 in most cases won't be anything close to what you like when you are 24, 34, 44 etc. So to label albums you only recently heard, after just barely dipping your toe in the deep waters of prog for a few minutes relatively speaking, as "disappointing" is somewhat a meaningless and vacuous exercise when you have very little to compare them with. Which is why I asked, disappointing in comparison to what? Not everyone of every age is going to be immediately ready to appreciate and understand all facets of progressive rock. I would hardly recommend someone to delve into the operatic Italian symphonic genre or the Zuehl genre completely cold with very little musical background or listening experience no matter what age, much less expect an adolescent "get" and appreciate such music. There is a learning curve to conquer and there is nothing wrong with that. It takes years in some cases to come around and appreciate an album or a type of music. To suggest that telling someone so young to go slow and take the time to appreciate and listen instead of immediately rejecting well recieved classics of prog and labeling them a "disappointment" is somehow forcing an opinion or constitutes bad advice is ludicrous.
Again, to make the analogy as plainly and simply as possible, at the risk of overstatement, you should conquer Dr Suess before you go labeling Homer's Iliad a "disappointment". |
Oh, okay, so young people aren't allowed to listen to prog. I got it.
Just because he didn't like something off the first spin (a disappointment) doesn't mean that's he's not going
to revisit the album when he's 24 or 34 or 44 and think different things about it each times. To me Foxtrot
was a severe disappointment. But I still gave it a five star review after letting it sink in.
Sorry if I'm still missing your "point", but from most of the posts I've seen from you here you just don't like the
idea of a younger generation picking up on the music that you cherish so much (and deservedly so) but
thinking different things about it. That's what I'm getting anyways. Am I wrong?
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Yes.
You are either not understanding what I am saying, or purposely ignoring what I am saying.
I never said young people shouldn't listen to prog. Quite the opposite actually.
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 20:45 |
crimson87 wrote:
OK five albums
THE LAMB IS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF OVERRATED CRAP IN ALL PROG
NURSERY CRYME
DEPOIS DO FIM
IN ABSENTIA
ELEGANT GYPSY
I`m gonna look for more |
I'm assuming it won't take long, as your collection can't have more than 20 discs with a list like this.
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Leningrad
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 7991
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 20:58 |
Anyone who mentioned Si On Avait Besoin d'une Cinquieme Saison or The Snow Goose is lying. They have to be.
And just to put it out there to defend cacho and King By-Tor's arguments, I'm 15 years old and listen to all sorts of classical, Zeuhl and avant-garde.
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LinusW
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 21:26 |
When I was 15 I listened to NWOBHM. When I was 16 I listened to power prog metal. When I was 17 I listened to Purple and Uriah Heep. When I was 18 I listened to Kansas and Rush. Now I'm 19 - and here I am, listening to a whole lot of new favourite bands from many different categories. For some of us there is a "learning curve" - even if I dislike the expression. Change and progression are better words. Some of us instantly like prog, and hate pop. In those cases there might be another sort of learning curve. I really feel that there are a lot of misunderstandings surrounding this subject, leading to unnecessary hostility. But one thing is fur sure, ageism is bad. Very bad. And let's keep it away from the site. Let's all be friends! 
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
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Posted: April 13 2008 at 21:42 |
In my experience, both in my own household, and in observing the listening habits of younger people, because of the ease of technology, which makes a whole lot of music instantly accessible in far greater quantities than it was back in the 70s when the first wave of prog was being created, I have observed a tendency for people to accumulate a lot of music, but grow restless and inpatient much quicker than those of us who grew up with vinyl and had to scour and search for music much harder. I have observed a tendency to want to move on to the next thing quickly, and as a result, imo, sometimes music that is a little more demanding and requiring of patience and time is quickly ingested, processed and then discarded, like a commodity instead of a piece of art. There is a tendency to collect, to see how many numbers we can accumulate, and lost in that is the voyage of discovery, the process of getting to know and understand what you are listening to. Some of you have pretty much admitted as much in your posts. So again, labeling things you are just discovering as a 'disappointment' so quickly, when you haven't spent much time to live with it for awhile, and without some more background references upon which to draw, doesn't really mean a whole lot, that's my point.
Its not a race to accumulate. Slow down, and listen, and take the time to know and understand what you are hearing. Its really that simple. Believe it or not, sometimes age brings the benefit of experience and history. You might find out that you may even learn a thing or two along the way. Believe it or not, you may not know everything by the age of 20.
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: April 15 2008 at 03:13 |
Squonkman wrote:
In my experience, both in my own household, and in observing the listening habits of younger people, because of the ease of technology, which makes a whole lot of music instantly accessible in far greater quantities than it was back in the 70s when the first wave of prog was being created, I have observed a tendency for people to accumulate a lot of music, but grow restless and inpatient much quicker than those of us who grew up with vinyl and had to scour and search for music much harder. I have observed a tendency to want to move on to the next thing quickly, and as a result, imo, sometimes music that is a little more demanding and requiring of patience and time is quickly ingested, processed and then discarded, like a commodity instead of a piece of art.
There is a tendency to collect, to see how many numbers we can accumulate, and lost in that is the voyage of discovery, the process of getting to know and understand what you are listening to. Some of you have pretty much admitted as much in your posts. So again, labeling things you are just discovering as a 'disappointment' so quickly, when you haven't spent much time to live with it for awhile, and without some more background references upon which to draw, doesn't really mean a whole lot, that's my point.
Its not a race to accumulate. Slow down, and listen, and take the time to know and understand what you are hearing. Its really that simple. Believe it or not, sometimes age brings the benefit of experience and history. You might find out that you may even learn a thing or two along the way. Believe it or not, you may not know everything by the age of 20. |
Excellent post! I agree 100%
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Plankowner
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 09 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 4006
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Posted: April 15 2008 at 05:15 |
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Only been here a few days, but I really must admit I was really enjoying this thread till once again I encountered the poor kid cacho being beat up by sqounkman... can't we separate these two?
Only mentioning it cause it keeps showing up wherever I read and was even part of my welcome newbies thread. Guess I should avoid the active topic threads.
For the thread this originated under, I was so disappointed with Sieges Even "Paramount" that I actually snapped the cd in half. (Guess I was a bit more than disappointed, actually angry.)
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Top 5 Most Dissapointing prog albums
