Innovative vs. Regressive prog artists

russellk wrote: I don't really know how to advise you, Ivan, but I would point out that this is a voluntary forum. You choose to respond in the manner you do. It seems to me there may be a direct correlation between the amount of blue ink you use, when you start in on other people's posts, 'correcting' them, and the number of people who complain. The more ink you use, perhaps, the more people don't like it. If you chose to respond in a different fashion, maybe you'll get a different response in turn.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 12 2008 at 17:34

Proletariat wrote: Stewe, give it up. You can't win arguments against Ivan, so before this turns into a giant multicolored quote column you should agree to dissagree and go listen to Arena, not worrying about why you like it.

Not trying to win anything. I like to discuss about my favourite music from time to time, some issues that make me wonder, and see other opinions. Here on PA I respect them as well thought I don't share them always. And I can improve my english eventually here:)

Dorsalia wrote: Exactly. And I personally don't like Arena being called a supergroup because I think it can create misconceptions about their music.

I want to make the argument that AC/DC is a "supergroup". The bassist, Cliff WIlliams played with Home, & Al Stewart; Malcolm Young with Velvet Underground ( for those in the know who know this is true and untrue); Phil Rudd was in Buster Brown, with Angry Anderson who would go on to (some) success with Rose Tattoo; and Brian Johnson was in regional star Geordie. Angus, well ,his big brother was in the Easybeats and Flash in the Pan. And Bon Scott was in Australian pop sensations the Valentines.
OF course, that and the fact that AC/DC are a Super Group.

debrewguy wrote: I want to make the argument that AC/DC is a "supergroup". The bassist, Cliff WIlliams played with Home, & Al Stewart; Malcolm Young with Velvet Underground ( for those in the know who know this is true and untrue); Phil Rudd was in Buster Brown, with Angry Anderson who would go on to (some) success with Rose Tattoo; and Brian Johnson was in regional star Geordie. Angus, well ,his big brother was in the Easybeats and Flash in the Pan. And Bon Scott was in Australian pop sensations the Valentines. OF course, that and the fact that AC/DC are a Super Group.

stewe wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Tracy Hitchings, guest in Arena was a member of Quasar May I ask, where Tracy guests in Arena?   Here's the list of participants in the debut album - John Carson / vocals and backing vocals - Keith More / guitars - Clive Nolan / keyboards and backing vocals - Cliff Orsi / bass and backing vocals - Mick Pointer / drums - Steve Rothery / guitar (#8) - Tracy Hitchings, Tosh McMann, Martin Albering, and Marc Van Dongen / backing vocals Question answered. And secondly - is according to you, Blackfield the supergroup? Taking in consideration your arguments.   Blackfield is a two man project in which only Wilson is known, Geffen is from an almost unknown Israeli Prog Related band, so hardly it's a supergrouup.   But...ifyou want, well, no problem with me. if Caamora is called a supergroup by many...What's the problem?   Iván

Ivan ...

I just hope that by picking a truly non-prog band as an example, I've made a point as to how easy it can be to affix the "supergroup" tag to your favourite band; without irritating any PA member by dismissing or diminishing one's favourite group (How dare you say that Gnidrolog were not top flight talent!!!!).
 Home were clearly not top tier, though they had some success (I have & enjoy the Alchemist). Rose Tattoo did enjoy a good run down under as a more basic AC/DC with slide, and they did have fans in the metal/hard rock community in the Americas and the U.K. Geordie enjoyed more fame after Brian Johnson joined AC/DC than they did before. But you see my point about claiming esteemed status based on the opinion we have of the personnel's previous work.
I don't much of Arena. Some reviews I've read describe them as on the heavier side of Neo. What little I've heard (Amazon.com snippets), leaves me cold (my opinion only), and the band members past & present don't (again IMHO only) exactly constitute a Prog Rock pantheon. Indeed, and without any malice, that  having ex-drummer from Marillion (well known in Europe, less so in the Americas even in their Fish Heyday), a keyboardist from what some consider a second tier neo band (no mention of these same people's disdain for neo or that it is undeserved), a famous group's fill-in guitarist, and a vocalist & bassist from obscure groups not not make for supergroup status, especially considering that none are claimed to have been songwriting forces.
Or consider this - Let's take Rick Wills (bassist on D Gilmour's debut solo album, and Foreigner), Alan White (drummer - Yes, Lennon, G Harrison), Martin Barre (guitarist - Tull, solo),  and round it out with Cameron Hawkins on vocals & keyboards (FM). All have enjoyed commercial success , and far surpass collectively the name recognition of the various Arena members. But calling them a supergroup would be a bit much. None , apart from Hawkins wrote much in their groups, and not a one would be able to mount any sizeable tour on their own. Yet, their associations, and the music that they've played on isn't all that obscure, eh ...

Which isn't to say that Arena aren't good or great. Just that their origins, and even their current status come far short of a true supergoup.


Edited by debrewguy - July 14 2008 at 14:19

There has never been a more perfect example of useless arguing on PA.

Well maybe.

But odds are Ivan was involved in those too. (kidding)

I mean really, who cares what exactly a supergroup is?

^^^ .

1. As Stonebeard said, this is useless, this thread has grown due to people having prejudices against the words Neoo Prog and Supergroup.
2. I don't try to show my knowledge, people knows me here for years, almost since the site opened, the little knowledge I may have is reflected in the work we done as a team and doing now in a second team. I need to prove nothing to you or anybody, I'm only a person who says what he believes.
3. I'm trying to destroy stupid prejudices as:
1. Neo Prog is lame
2. Supergroups are bad.
3. Only New Innovative Prog is good

Learn to accept that terms don't make the music,. they are only visual aid to classify music, for research and investigation purpose.

stewe wrote: It may sounds kind of weird... but today I have listened to recent albums The Flower Kings and I can help feeling how I found again their music mostly pointless, uninspired and stagnant (although their proficiency as musicians). Similar problem I have with recent music of Neal Morse or Pendragon (with exception of the last album). Still the same formula repeated and recycled thousands times, ideas are taken from 70s giants. That music sounds like routine to me in most cases. On the other hand I feel constant evolution and new inspiration in music of prog-bands like Pain of Salvation, Opeth, Porcupine Tree even Arena. Integrity of those bands remains, influences of variety of music are still present, but all it serves as the healthy inspiration without recycling the ideas - music has much more own "face". Focus is on compositions, creating moods, not primarily on jamming and showing-off the skills, and sounds fresh with each new effort. Anyone has such feelings of dividing of current prog music?