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StyLaZyn 
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Joined: November 22 2005
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 Topic: Innovative vs. Regressive prog artists
Posted: July 22 2008 at 09:36 |
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Maybe I should become a troll.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 4079
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Posted: July 22 2008 at 09:35 |
 Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Humans love to categorize and label. It's what we do.
I still contest that it is for this reason. OK, maybe a sub-genre and not a full fledged genre. A genre to me is a style of music. |
...and that is EXACTLY why Prog is not a genre. |
A style defines the genre.
If one was to use your definition, then rock, jazz, classical, R&B, etc...are not genres, but as we are well aware, this is not the case. |
Using your words, you have negated your argument and confirmed mine absolutely
That second sentence makes no sense. Explain? |
There must be communication breakdown here.
Here is the definition of genre by Webster:
| 1. |
a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music. |
Prog is a genre, because it is just what this definition says. But more actually, it is a sub-genre of Rock.
I fixed my confusing sentence above. |
Actually, that definition from Webster clearly shows why Prog ISN'T a genre.
Genres are specific, like Epic poetry and Symphonic music...
Oh, hang on - the Webster's definition already says that!
Prog has no particular form (that's one of the main points of Prog), no particular content (if it did, it wouldn't really be Prog), and no particular techniques (just loads and loads of different and widely varying ones).
Prog Rock is not specific - it includes epic and symphonic sounding stuff, heavy stuff, folky stuff, electronicy stuff - all sorts of stuff - ergo it's not a genre - by ALL definitions you've posted.
A genre to me is a style of music.
A style defines the genre.
...so what style does Prog have, that it can define the genre?
The correct answer, to save time, is that it has so many styles that it can't possibly be considered as a single one - and thus cannot be considered a genre either.
But these definitions already make that perfectly clear!
Prog Rock is a type of Rock music, yes - but not a single subgenre of it. That is a self-evident nonsense.
Confusingly, if you examine the music at an atomic rather than historic level, it looks more like Rock is a subdivision of Prog. But atomic physics is confusing and self-contradictory stuff.
I can't see what your problem is  |
OK, have it your way. Prog Rock is not a genre or sub-genre for this thread. But in my eyes it is. Prog came after Rock and Roll, not vice versa. Without Rock, Prog may never have existed as it does today. Yes, Prog expanded into different styles we chose to call genres of Prog. But from a linear standpoint, Prog is a product of Rock.
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: July 22 2008 at 09:24 |
<< Actually, I was just telling you what my hobby was.
Troll hating.
I think that, by posting a troll, you did deserve it - and note
that I make the distinction between the post being a troll, NOT the
poster...  >> Yes, we cleared this up via PM. All is good on this end. E |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: July 22 2008 at 03:03 |
E-Dub wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
E-Dub wrote:
Great...another neo sucks rant. At this point I see "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!" Oh, and "blah!" 
Find another hobby, People.
E
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I hate trolls. |
Not sure what I did to deserve this, but you're entitled.
E
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Actually, I was just telling you what my hobby was.
Troll hating.
I think that, by posting a troll, you did deserve it - and note that I make the distinction between the post being a troll, NOT the poster... 
StyLaZyn wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Humans love to categorize and label. It's what we do.
I still contest that it is for this reason. OK, maybe a sub-genre and not a full fledged genre. A genre to me is a style of music. |
...and that is EXACTLY why Prog is not a genre. |
A style defines the genre.
If one was to use your definition, then rock, jazz, classical, R&B, etc...are not genres, but as we are well aware, this is not the case. |
Using your words, you have negated your argument and confirmed mine absolutely
That second sentence makes no sense. Explain? |
There must be communication breakdown here.
Here is the definition of genre by Webster:
| 1. |
a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music. |
Prog is a genre, because it is just what this definition says. But more actually, it is a sub-genre of Rock.
I fixed my confusing sentence above. |
Actually, that definition from Webster clearly shows why Prog ISN'T a genre.
Genres are specific, like Epic poetry and Symphonic music...
Oh, hang on - the Webster's definition already says that!
Prog has no particular form (that's one of the main points of Prog), no particular content (if it did, it wouldn't really be Prog), and no particular techniques (just loads and loads of different and widely varying ones).
Prog Rock is not specific - it includes epic and symphonic sounding stuff, heavy stuff, folky stuff, electronicy stuff - all sorts of stuff - ergo it's not a genre - by ALL definitions you've posted.
A genre to me is a style of music.
A style defines the genre.
...so what style does Prog have, that it can define the genre?
The correct answer, to save time, is that it has so many styles that it can't possibly be considered as a single one - and thus cannot be considered a genre either.
But these definitions already make that perfectly clear!
Prog Rock is a type of Rock music, yes - but not a single subgenre of it. That is a self-evident nonsense.
Confusingly, if you examine the music at an atomic rather than historic level, it looks more like Rock is a subdivision of Prog. But atomic physics is confusing and self-contradictory stuff.
I can't see what your problem is
Edited by Certif1ed - July 22 2008 at 03:14
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:45 |
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heyitsthatguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006
Location: Washington Hgts
Status: Offline
Points: 10094
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:39 |
stonebeard wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
Well for me it was that approve emoticon. I hate that thing! |
I like it.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 11:29 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
Well for me it was that approve emoticon. I hate that thing! |
I like it.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 11:27 |
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Well for me it was that approve emoticon. I hate that thing!
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 11:05 |
Extra 'blah' = Hate. WOW!  E
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Online
Points: 21752
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 11:00 |
^ must have been the last, additional "blah"!
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 10:39 |
Certif1ed wrote:
E-Dub wrote:
Great...another neo sucks rant. At this point I see "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!" Oh, and "blah!"
Find another hobby, People.
E
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I hate trolls. |
Not sure what I did to deserve this, but you're entitled. E
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 08:36 |
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Humans love to categorize and label. It's what we do.
I still contest that it is for this reason. OK, maybe a sub-genre and not a full fledged genre. A genre to me is a style of music. |
...and that is EXACTLY why Prog is not a genre. |
A style defines the genre.
If one was to use your definition, then rock, jazz, classical, R&B, etc...are not genres, but as we are well aware, this is not the case. |
Using your words, you have negated your argument and confirmed mine absolutely
That second sentence makes no sense. Explain? |
There must be communication breakdown here.
Here is the definition of genre by Webster:
| 1. |
a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music. |
Prog is a genre, because it is just what this definition says. But more actually, it is a sub-genre of Rock.
I fixed my confusing sentence above.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 02:34 |
E-Dub wrote:
Great...another neo sucks rant. At this point I see "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!" Oh, and "blah!"
Find another hobby, People.
E
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I hate trolls.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 02:33 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Humans love to categorize and label. It's what we do.
I still contest that it is for this reason. OK, maybe a sub-genre and not a full fledged genre. A genre to me is a style of music.
|
...and that is EXACTLY why Prog is not a genre. |
A style defines the genre.
If one was to use your definition, then rock, jazz, classical, R&B, etc...are not genres, but as well are aware, this is not the case.
|
Using your words, you have negated your argument and confirmed mine absolutely
That second sentence makes no sense. Explain?
Edited by Certif1ed - July 21 2008 at 02:34
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 19 2008 at 23:23 |
E-Dub is back...........................I'm not alone. 
Iván
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: July 19 2008 at 22:39 |
E-Dub wrote:
Great...another neo sucks rant. At this point I see "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!" Oh, and "blah!"
Find another hobby, People.
E
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: July 19 2008 at 19:42 |
Great...another neo sucks rant. At this point I see "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!" Oh, and "blah!" Find another hobby, People. E
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anglagardist
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 06 2007
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 40
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Posted: July 19 2008 at 13:29 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Prog bands had to change, be more accessible to the general public or die
....
So don't judge a band for their influences (which I believe are far from AOR in 99% of the cases), they are different influence, for a different sub-genre and in a different decade that rejected all what 70's Symphonic represented.
....
If Neo Prog didn't existed, Par Lindh would never had the chance to create the Swedish Art Rock Society in 1991 and impulse bands as Anglagard to resurrect Symphonic, because Prog would had been dead log before and today you would be listening Eminem and Snoop Dog.
It's easy to criticize without an historical perspective, I know it, because I used to do it
anglagardist wrote:
As for other subgenres, I certainly prefer some RIO or fusion or Canterbury etc. bands to the best neoprog, but I admit it's hard to compare detachedly. |
That's only a matter of taste, it doesn't imply an8ything except that your taste is different to other person's
anglagardist wrote:
I'm trying to destroy stupid prejudice as: Neoprog is full-value subgenre of prog.
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I would agree with you in most things, I even accept that Symphonic will always be my favorite sub-genre, but this kind of phrases are harming us, Neo Prog is a full Prog Sub-genre, with different characteristics, a product of different decades and different situations, but as valid as any other one.
This is what some of us are fighting against, and proves all my previous posts, people speak from the teeth to the exterior about Neo Prog being great, but most of them believe it's a second rate genre and don't want to see their favorite band included in Neo, because they are afraid they will be judged.
Iván |
I could undersign everything you wrote. I respect 80's neoprog as a product of its time, as a product of situation in 80's musical world. I would never write a negative review of e.g. Misplaced Childhood, which I find too simple to my personal tastes. I understand, it would be unfair to criticise it and compare it to the best 70's symphonic prog, because artistic freedom of both eras was not comparable.
As well I consider neoprog as an important subgenre for all new to the whole prog-world.
I really don't want to harm anybody in PA writing about neoprog. Reading my previous post again, I see I should be more precise and should say :
I'm trying to destroy stupid prejudice as: Neoprog is artistically full-value subgenre of prog.
I'm sorry, but no neoprog band didn't convince me yet I'm wrong.
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Mostly it's impossible to win the fight against stupidity. But always it's necessary to attempt it.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 18 2008 at 08:23 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ it can be used to reference a style. It has more meanings and goes deeper than style descriptions like "southern rock", but still. |
And there are sub-genres of southern rock, albeit very few.
We treat music like we do the animal kingdom, only we haven't given each level a particular name, such like science did with Kingdom --> Phylum --> Class --> Order --> Family --> Genus -->Species.
We can all argue on what is actually a sub genre of an overall genre, but to me Prog will always be a sub-genre of Rock because Prog is a derivative/child of Rock. Maybe not entirely but mostly. That last point would be difficult to contest.
If style and genre are NOT the same, explain.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 18 2008 at 08:16 |
Certif1ed wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Humans love to categorize and label. It's what we do.
I still contest that it is for this reason. OK, maybe a sub-genre and not a full fledged genre. A genre to me is a style of music.
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...and that is EXACTLY why Prog is not a genre. |
A style defines the genre. If one was to use your definition, then rock, jazz, classical, R&B, etc...are not genres, but as well are aware, this is not the case.
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Innovative vs. Regressive prog artists
