Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.

1800iareyay wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: I get what you mean, but what part of "put yourself in their shoes" is so hard to understand? To us outsiders, it certainly doesn't seem fair, but quite honestly I'm not surprised that Israel has always treated the Palestinians like crap. From what I've learned, they (the Palestinians) are like that kid who's a social reject and sits by himself every day on the playground during recess until he snaps and starts going nuts. It used to be that large numbers of Palestinians would flock to other Middle Eastern countries, but Egypt, one of the countries heavily involved in the current peace discussions, has closed their borders to Palestine. They don't want these people and no other country does because they just cause trouble wherever they go, at least they did last time I checked a history book. Anyway, to respond to what you said, try to imagine the situation from the perspective of the Israelis. I can fully understand why they wouldn't allow Arabs to hold office in Israel. How many native Arabs can you think of that like having Israel around? I'm trying very hard to stay calm right now. Palestine is the social reject? They were kicked out of their own country because a country thousands of miles away committed atrocities on a people who used to live in the region. Eventually countries close borders to refugees because they just can't deal with them, not because they're "troublemakers." 1.4 million people are living on a strip of land smaller than a decent-sized city, and those are the descendants of generations of refugees. They've only ever known squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire all around them, and they get sanctioned by the West. The ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli casualties is right now 971:13. It's a goddamn slaughter. And they're just being petulant? How dare you.

Last I checked, this was between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestinians. They get sanctioned by the West because Hamas has been declared a terrorist group by many Western countries for many of the terrible atrocities they themselves have committed. The Palestinians suffer from "squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire" because Hamas currently runs that country and prefers to use money to launch missles at Israel rather than establish ways for Palestinians to get adequate food, water, shelter, etc.  They got kicked out of part of their country because the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and no country wanted to take these large numbers of Jewish refugees in (not surprisingly at all). Granted, dealing with large numbers of refugees is part of the reason other Middle Eastern countries have closed their borders to these people, but the other part is because Hamas could easily use that as an excuse to slip their members into other countries as well as gain control in places other than Palestine.

Is there anything I didn't provide an answer to for what you just said? Also, I keep mentioning Hamas because, how do I put this... oh yeah, THEY are the problem, NOT the Israelis. Until Hamas is driven out of Palestine, the Palestinians will never know anything except war, destruction, and chaos.

Dmitri? ..Dmitri?!

birdwithteeth11 wrote: I get what you mean, but what part of "put yourself in their shoes" is so hard to understand? To us outsiders, it certainly doesn't seem fair, but quite honestly I'm not surprised that Israel has always treated the Palestinians like crap. From what I've learned, they (the Palestinians) are like that kid who's a social reject and sits by himself every day on the playground during recess until he snaps and starts going nuts. It used to be that large numbers of Palestinians would flock to other Middle Eastern countries, but Egypt, one of the countries heavily involved in the current peace discussions, has closed their borders to Palestine. They don't want these people and no other country does because they just cause trouble wherever they go, at least they did last time I checked a history book. Anyway, to respond to what you said, try to imagine the situation from the perspective of the Israelis. I can fully understand why they wouldn't allow Arabs to hold office in Israel. How many native Arabs can you think of that like having Israel around?

I'm trying very hard to stay calm right now. Palestine is the social reject? They were kicked out of their own country because a country thousands of miles away committed atrocities on a people who used to live in the region. Eventually countries close borders to refugees because they just can't deal with them, not because they're "troublemakers." 1.4 million people are living on a strip of land smaller than a decent-sized city, and those are the descendants of generations of refugees. They've only ever known squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire all around them, and they get sanctioned by the West. The ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli casualties is right now 971:13. It's a goddamn slaughter. And they're just being petulant? How dare you.

Henry Plainview wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote:   Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?! And I wasn't trying to call you a bad person. But I'm pretty sure generalizing an the inhabitants of an area as violent psychopaths is racist. It's not blaming the Jews so much as pointing out the atrocities they have committed in the name of self-defense.

Alright, I understand the first part. I do tend to generalize sometimes with regards to what history says. By no means do I think all Muslims are bad people either.

What atrocities are you specifically referring to? If the white phosphorous thing is one of them, last I remember that was used as recently as the Second World War. The fact that we have "civilized" countries still using it doesn't really surprise me. It's a hell of an effective weapon for rooting out an enemy that's dug in and entrenched (although the fact that they are chemical weapons does lead to the moral issue of the dilemma).

birdwithteeth11 wrote:   Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?!

Edited by Henry Plainview - January 13 2009 at 22:08

Atavachron wrote: I've had things stolen from me, it bites big time, but I think people's lives and homes are a little different than an Iron Maiden album

Atavachron wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: Atavachron wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: I haven't seen this picked up by the major networks, and I'm not sure why, but if it's true, I challenge anyone outside of Israel to defend it: The two Arab parties, which represent 20% of the electorate, have been banned from the next Parliamentary election. but do you challenge anyone inside of Israel to defend it.. then you might get some reality I do, but there's no point because their perception is more likely to biased.   you mean more biased in the way that people actually living somewhere might have a greater stake in and keener sense of what's going on?

Edited by Henry Plainview - January 13 2009 at 21:52

crimson87 wrote: All I am asking to the Israeil authorities is not to mess with Mahoud Ahmadineyad , if they do we may face  the f*cking apocalypse.

no I don't think so..  I mean is that really a good idea?  "Don't mess with him" or we'll face the apocalypse?  Isn't that precisely where he wants you?   It's all about fear, isn't it.  Fear, fear, and more fear.  Ahmadinejad can kiss my hairy ass if he'd like to but he won't intimidate me and he won't intimidate Israel.  I know a bully when I see one and he's a classic small man with a chip on his shoulder.  He's a child in a man's body, and his country is paying for it.  The little weasel. 

The only good thing about him is that Iran could have an even worse leader.  Now--  if he has a change of heart and decides to be a real statesman, lead his country and maybe the entire Middle East to a resolution that's one thing.  Right now he's just a punk.

Both sides are so full of bullsh*t. It is getting hard to care anymore.

Edited by KoS - January 13 2009 at 20:33

stonebeard wrote: I want Israel as a state to exist. I don't really care where it is, but I think that group should have a homeland. Their main actions seem to be justified here. Hamas, it seems, is not compatible with the existence of Israel, so it has to go. They are cowards and less than human, hiding behind civilians to try and urge Israel into killing a few civilians so they can parade them in front of Western eyes. However, though I do not know the details, using white phosphorous bombs seems to be a no-no in the civilized world, and it also seems Israel doesn't care. I'm also quite pissed the American government bends over backwards for Israel in all circumstances, no questions asked. It's a mess of a situation. I am getting quite fed up with the middle east. If this Holy Land is causing all this trouble and doesn't seem to get better, then I'm tempted to say bomb it all to hell or just let the nutters kill themselves over it. Just don't bother me with your fanaticism.

I agree 100% with the bolded part. At least the Israelis don't denounce everyone around the world who isn't Jewish.

Secondly, before you sign that petition (I don't really want to go on a rant on my opinion, so I'll keep it short), imagine yourself if you were in the shoes of the Israelis who are subjected almost daily to the threat of missles being launched at you by a terrorist group like Hamas. What would you want your government to do?


Edited by birdwithteeth11 - January 13 2009 at 20:29