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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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I disagree. Symphonic Prog was the most important movement of the classic prog era in the 70s (beginning in the late 60s). But in the late 70s the movement stopped. That doesn't mean that there weren't still a few bands on the planet that made this type of music ... it means that most music fans did not know them, they were "Underground". Later bands appeared which based their music on those bands, but also brought in new influences ... the biggest example being Neo Prog. Clearly early Marillion is influenced by classic Genesis, yet it's a different style. In the 90s even more bands began to make music that was inspired by classic (Symphonic) prog, but again they brought in new influences, Spock's Beard for example (American AOR) But some bands in the 90s were making music that sounded exactly like classic 70s symphonic prog Anglagard and (later) Wobbler being good examples. Wobbler even used only instruments that were made in the 70s. And *those* I call Retro. There's nothing wrong with it. |
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The Quiet One ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
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Sorry, but I love all these bands, Tangent, Flower Kings, etc, and like the tag 'Retro' because it helps me distinguishe them from the 70's Symphonic wave, sorry if you guys find it insulting, but the word itself is really not...
Yes, I surely use the word 'Retro' in this case, badly, incorrect, but I don't say it meaning they're "clones" or "copycats" or whatever, it's just a simple 'tag' just like Neo for me, to distinguish the sound, for me Retro Prog implies of Modern Symphonic, in most cases, again, I repeat, my definition is obviously incorrect, but I like to use it, and results me easier and accesible. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Mike, the words Retro and Nostalgia implies a feeling of revival of something that existed before and no longer does. Symphonic Prog is a genre born in 1967 with Thoughts of the Emerlist Davjack, that was officially recognized with In the Court of the Crimson king, developed with bands as Genesis and Yes, continued existing with Hybris or Gothic Impressions and still today is alive with bands as Blank Manuskript, Karda Estra or Shadow Circus, Alex Carpani Band and Anton Roolaart. Now reminiscent is a valid term, because many bands of the 70's were reminiscent of Genesis, Yes or King Crimson, but despite this fact, nobody would dare to call them retro prog
We are not talking about a new sub-genre trying to play in the style of an old sub-genre, we are talking about bands playing in the same style that is 41 years old.
Why in hell must a sub-genre last 5, 10 or 20 years? Romanticism lasts 80 years and Rachmaninoff who composed in the XX Century during the Modern Classical Era is not called retro Classical, is called ROMANTIC, as a fact is considered one of the most iconic ROMANTIC composers despite he wrote most of his music in the 1900's.
I see two flaws in this way of thinking: 1.- Some members are getting used to futile genres as Disco that only survive a few years, because they have to leave a clear path for new futile genres. 2,. And/or we want to convince people that Symphonic is a thing from the past and the only valid genres are Avant Garde or Prog Metal. We need healthy, strong, transcendental sub-genres that may survive 4, 6 or 8 decades as some sub-genres of jazz do, and Symphonic is one of them. Symphonic is alive and growing again. Symphonic of the XXIst Century is absolutely different in many ways to early Symphonic, but being part of the same genre and influenced by Classical Music essentially, has many similarities with bands like Renaissance, Genesis and Yes, who received the same basic influence.
If we want to tag new Symphonic bands as Retro Prog, lets be fair and tag all Prog Metal bands as Retro Heavy Metal, because all of them share elements developed by bands like Led Zeppelin (Formed in 1968) or black Sabbath (Formed in 1968) or Judas Priest (Formed 1969)
Or bands as Pain of Salvation and Symphony X "Double retro Prog - metal, because they share elements of early metal and Early Symphonic.
That would be absurd......As absurd as calling retro to a sub-gtenre that never died.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 28 2009 at 17:03 |
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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"Retro" ... the word does not seem harsh to me at all. Instead of Death I associate Nostalgia and Reminiscence of old times. There aren't many bands around that I would call Retro anyway, but there are many who at least from time to time add Retro elements. For example, any prog band which today uses classic Mellotron sounds is Retro ... at least to some extent. |
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Diaby ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 15 2007 Location: Hungary Status: Offline Points: 774 |
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Yep, I fully agree with you, especially with your opinion about "insulting". Even if it is not used with a bad purpose. I think most people are just trying to refer to the "third wave" prog bands that are not prog metal
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Symphonic or not, this is true as well. As for me, I find TFK more an eclectic prog band than a symphonic, but that's a smaller question. By the way, what dou you think: can their very low ratings (no album by them about 4.00!
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yeah
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Roj ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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Well said
![]() What Ivan has said pretty much sums up exactly how I feel on the subject. Diaby had touched on this earlier too. I hate the "retro" tag.
I guess people like Roine Stolt may admit they're "retro", but I just find it an insult to be honest. The bands termed "neo" were given a whole new genre when they're clearly influenced by the very same bands. Yet TFK, Tangent and Beardfish are dubbed "retro". In any event I see a lot of new ideas in these so-called retro bands. TFK's material for instance is extremely diverse. And can anybody say that Transatlantic are a replica of the 70s giants? I don't see it at all, and I was around in the 70s listening to those prog rock giants. Remember too that Roine was actually in a 70s prog band!
For me the modern symphonic bands are fully deserving of their status as "symphonic".
That's all.
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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I refuse to call anything Retro Prog, because this name implies:
That we are talking about a dead genre, and Prog never died, it's the same genre from 4 decades ago, only that bigger.
Why has a gernre to be limited to 10 or 15 years? Why can't Symphonic today be the same Symphonic than 20 years ago=
Most of this bands have some references to past icons, but they also have some new aspects.
I believe it's a harsh term,
Just my 2 cents.
Iván
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 38368 |
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I don't have a top ten, and don't think I'd call this a "retro-prog" band per se, but it is a sort of retro-folk prog and worth checking out, I think.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofbriars |
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"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967).
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progrules ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 14 2007 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 958 |
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Just another way to get TFK on the map isn't it ?
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ They are retro to a great extent ... but on some albums (Retropolis, Stardust) more than on others (Space Revolver, Unfold the Future). That's why tags have levels at PF ... but let's not go there in this thread.
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Diaby ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 15 2007 Location: Hungary Status: Offline Points: 774 |
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TFK without modern influences? They're a very eclectic band. One of the most eclectic, actually.
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yeah
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Raff ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24439 |
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Indeed ![]() ![]() Anyway, as already pointed out in a couple of posts, there are some 'retro' bands in Heavy Prog too. Besides Anekdoten and Black Bonzo, I'd like to mention Australian band Cosmic Nomads, recommended to us by HT (aka Bhikkhu) - a must for Hammond organ lovers. |
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The Quiet One ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
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I like the label, and I think it's a better way to describe the music of such bands, rather than saying most of them are Symphonic... I can barely think of a 'true' Neo Prog band which is Retro, this means, 80's Neo Prog bands. Yes, Neo Prog bands are developing a more Retro sound lately, IQ and others.... |
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rushfan4 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66738 |
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Here is my list as created with Mike's formula above. I'm nto sure why it didn't stop at 10, but consider the extra 6 bonus.
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ I'd say that TFK are retro in that they are closer in style to the original prog bands than most Neo Prog bands ever were. But of course there are bands that are even more retro - like Wobble for example.
I'd say that "Retro" simply refers to bands who are trying to re-create a certain style that peaked more than a decade ago, without modern influences. |
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Diaby ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 15 2007 Location: Hungary Status: Offline Points: 774 |
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Retro-prog is not a great label to use. It just means nothing in my eyes. Why is TFK more "retro" than the neo-prog bands?
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yeah
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Anaon ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaďa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
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Smpte by Transatlantic
Hybris by Anglagard Sound Of The Apocalypse by Black Bonzo Starduste We Are by The Flower Kings A Place In The Queue by The Tangent The Light by Spock's Beard (I don't know if it's retro prog) Hinterland by Wobbler ![]() |
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crimson87 ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: January 03 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1818 |
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I have TFK discography at work and I started dealing with it today. Roine Stolt solo album was pretty good , he can play guitar thats for sure. Tomorrow I am going for the Garden of dreams suite
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ of course you're very welcome to tag those albums, but since I also have a really large collection (1500+ album) I know that it's a tedious task. Instead, I simply tag albums as I'm listening to them, so that little by little the tag database grows. And as a really nice side effects, the tags help me to refresh my memory.
![]() Edited by Mr ProgFreak - March 14 2009 at 16:34 |
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avestin ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 18 2005 Status: Offline Points: 12625 |
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I don't remember tagging those (or tagging much for that matter), but nevermind, cause they fit.
Indeed Gargamel (who have just released their second album) is a very good choice. Perhaps also Discipline? Unfolded like Staircase is one of my all-time favourite album (my wife loves it as well). There are also a ton of Italian symph-prog bands from the 90s' and 2000s' that will fit very well (alongside the aforementioned Maschera Di Cera) |
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