| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Atavachron 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65774
|
 Posted: May 27 2009 at 17:22 |
|
^ in retrospect I think the better of the New Wave acts - like Simple Minds for instance - was some of the most classy and well made popular music.. I didn't much like it at the time, but I have to give it credit for quality and sincerity offered at a generally dismal time in music.
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: May 27 2009 at 17:35 |
 Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
2.- Prog was never the great force some people believe, in the 70's I went to the stores and found such bands as Tavares, The Spinners, Stylistics, Donna Summer, etc, and if lucky enough, one Yes or Pink Floyd album.
Yes, many more people knew Prog, but still the top 40's sucked as usual.
Iván |
We've been here before Iván. 
As Fuxi mentioned earlier, in the UK the picture was very different. That may not mean very much on the global scheme of things, but where Prog originated it was very big and very popular. As I have said many times - people who buy R&B, Disco and Soul would never have bought a rock record in their lives, let alone a Prog record, it's a different demographic, a different type of person - just as today people into Hip-Hop are never going to be Indie fans - different people, different markets.
|
Yes, probably in UK, being that in the 70's I lived in Birnmingham Alabhama and Prog was also pretty unpopular, except for Kansas, Styx and believe it or not Yes, nobody knew Genesis, much less King Crimson or even Pink Floyd.
Sometimes in the Rock station some Prog was played but nothing more.
So apparently Prog was a regional phenomenom in the 70's.
Iván
|
|
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: May 27 2009 at 17:37 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ in retrospect I think the better of the New Wave acts - like Simple Minds for instance - was some of the most classy and well made popular music.. I didn't much like it at the time, but I have to give it credit for quality and sincerity offered at a generally dismal time in music.
|
A point I've made before, but musicianship and shere creative talent does not change much from generation to generation - those "intelegent" New Wave bands (Banshees, Cure, Simple Minds, OMD, Talking Heads, Magazine, Stranglers, Comsat Angels, The Sound, XTC, etc...) would have been in Prog bands if history had been slightly different ... and in an alternate universe not so far away they still are.
|
|
What?
|
|
KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 573
|
Posted: May 27 2009 at 17:50 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any NeoPunk out there? NeoDisco? Maybe those music types are so immortal that there's no need for neo versions?
|
I'm sorry, did you just use "immortal" and "disco" in the same line?
|
|
Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 02:34 |
KingCrimson250 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any NeoPunk out there? NeoDisco? Maybe those music types are so immortal that there's no need for neo versions?
|
I'm sorry, did you just use "immortal" and "disco" in the same line?
|
Disco seems to be immortal, though, with the dance culture that has arised since the house / techno explosion from 1988.
I think Slartibart's notion is correct: prog needed a revival in the 1980's, but punk and disco were still popular when they were evolving into other directions (new wave / garage / grunge / post-punk etc. and house / techno respectively).
|
|
progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19643
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 03:45 |
EPIC
Theres no other word...
According to a fantastic source (My papa)
And he says that YES was bigger than U2 in their day...
No mean feat 
|
|
|
|
Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 06:26 |
I'm still amazed by an old list of best sold LP's in Italy in March '72, which I found in the book "Genesis; I Know What I Like" by Armando Gallo.
1. Pawn Hearts - Van der Graaf Generator
2. Storia Di Un Minuto - Premiata Forneria Marconi
3. Pictures At An Exhibition - Emerson, Lake & Palmer
4. Nursery Cryme - Genesis
5. Islands - King Crimson
6. Non Al Denaro, Non All'Amore Né Al Cielo - Fabrizio De André
7. Concert For Bangla Desh - George Harrison
8. Imagine - John Lennon
9. Mina - Mina
10. Led Zeppelin IV - Led Zeppelin
And on nr. 11 Fragile from Yes
Amazing, isn't it? The first five albums, the best sold albums of that month were all 100% prog, and those were not even albums that were close to mainstream rock. And when you count the Beatles solo albums to prog related, like Led Zeppelin's album IV, and you would include Yes' Fragile, you get even a higher score.
Prog must have been really big in Italy! 
|
|
Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24439
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 06:39 |
Moogtron III wrote:
I'm still amazed by an old list of best sold LP's in Italy in March '72, which I found in the book "Genesis; I Know What I Like" by Armando Gallo.
1. Pawn Hearts - Van der Graaf Generator
2. Storia Di Un Minuto - Premiata Forneria Marconi
3. Pictures At An Exhibition - Emerson, Lake & Palmer
4. Nursery Cryme - Genesis
5. Islands - King Crimson
6. Non Al Denaro, Non All'Amore Né Al Cielo - Fabrizio De André
7. Concert For Bangla Desh - George Harrison
8. Imagine - John Lennon
9. Mina - Mina
10. Led Zeppelin IV - Led Zeppelin
And on nr. 11 Fragile from Yes
Amazing, isn't it? The first five albums, the best sold albums of that month were all 100% prog, and those were not even albums that were close to mainstream rock. And when you count the Beatles solo albums to prog related, like Led Zeppelin's album IV, and you would include Yes' Fragile, you get even a higher score.
Prog must have been really big in Italy!
|
It was - sadly, you must have been the only one to have read my post  .
|
|
Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 06:53 |
Raff wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
I'm still amazed by an old list of best sold LP's in Italy in March '72, which I found in the book "Genesis; I Know What I Like" by Armando Gallo.
1. Pawn Hearts - Van der Graaf Generator
2. Storia Di Un Minuto - Premiata Forneria Marconi
3. Pictures At An Exhibition - Emerson, Lake & Palmer
4. Nursery Cryme - Genesis
5. Islands - King Crimson
6. Non Al Denaro, Non All'Amore Né Al Cielo - Fabrizio De André
7. Concert For Bangla Desh - George Harrison
8. Imagine - John Lennon
9. Mina - Mina
10. Led Zeppelin IV - Led Zeppelin
And on nr. 11 Fragile from Yes
Amazing, isn't it? The first five albums, the best sold albums of that month were all 100% prog, and those were not even albums that were close to mainstream rock. And when you count the Beatles solo albums to prog related, like Led Zeppelin's album IV, and you would include Yes' Fragile, you get even a higher score.
Prog must have been really big in Italy!
|
It was - sadly, you must have been the only one to have read my post.
|
Well, at least you have some backup now 
The statistics prove your point: prog was big in Italy.
Somewhere I wish I would have been witness of that. Well, I can't complain: I was a small kid in the Netherlands in the heydays of prog, but all my three older brothers listened to prog. I was exposed to prog at an early age. Prog must have meant something in Holland as well, I suppose. Though Italy takes the cake, I think.
Edited by Moogtron III - May 28 2009 at 06:54
|
|
GaryB
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 451
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 09:11 |
In 1975-76-77 I was the manager at a record store here in the Los Angeles area called Licorice Pizza. My store was number one in sales out of the sixteen stores in the chain so I can tell you what the kids were buying back then. BTW, the term "progressive" was just starting to be used to describe any rock music that was not rock and roll based or blues based.
Genesis was popular but was outsold by ELP and they were both outsold by Yes. Of course Pink Floyd was doing well with Wish You Were Here and Animals. Ziggy Stardust was still big but Bowie had more success with what some called his disco period (???) with songs like Young Americans and Modern Love. The middle version of Fleetwood Mac hooked up with Buckingham Nicks and their sales went through the roof. Aqualung made Jethro Tull a household name and some fans were stoned enough to call Robin Trower the greatest guitarist on the planet. Flo and Eddie hooked up with Zappa and the result was pretty positive.
Closer to my taste, rock guitarists like Jeff Beck and Tommy Bolin were "crossing over" and playing with jazz artists like Stanley Clarke, Billy Cobham, Lenny White, etc. Also, Return To Forever and Jean Luc Ponty were starting to receive well deserved recognition.
These are just a few things I remember off the top of my head (that was well over thirty years ago).
|
|
lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13852
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 13:21 |
Moogtron III wrote:
Raff wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
I'm still amazed by an old list of best sold LP's in Italy in March '72, which I found in the book "Genesis; I Know What I Like" by Armando Gallo.
1. Pawn Hearts - Van der Graaf Generator
2. Storia Di Un Minuto - Premiata Forneria Marconi
3. Pictures At An Exhibition - Emerson, Lake & Palmer
4. Nursery Cryme - Genesis
5. Islands - King Crimson
6. Non Al Denaro, Non All'Amore Né Al Cielo - Fabrizio De André
7. Concert For Bangla Desh - George Harrison
8. Imagine - John Lennon
9. Mina - Mina
10. Led Zeppelin IV - Led Zeppelin
And on nr. 11 Fragile from Yes
Amazing, isn't it? The first five albums, the best sold albums of that month were all 100% prog, and those were not even albums that were close to mainstream rock. And when you count the Beatles solo albums to prog related, like Led Zeppelin's album IV, and you would include Yes' Fragile, you get even a higher score.
Prog must have been really big in Italy!
|
It was - sadly, you must have been the only one to have read my post.
|
Well, at least you have some backup now
The statistics prove your point: prog was big in Italy.
Somewhere I wish I would have been witness of that. Well, I can't complain: I was a small kid in the Netherlands in the heydays of prog, but all my three older brothers listened to prog. I was exposed to prog at an early age. Prog must have meant something in Holland as well, I suppose. Though Italy takes the cake, I think. |
Raff, as ever, is spot on, as is Moogtron. In my earlier post, I criminally forgot to mention just how big Genesis were, and still are, in Italy. They broke there not long after reaching the charts in Belgium in (I think) 1971. To this day, they still demand Suppers Ready  I don't think it is an accident that the recent Genesis reunion DVD and the Gabriel DVD's were recorded in Italy. So, a big  to a great nation with impeccable taste.
|
|
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
|
|
GaryB
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 451
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 13:40 |
I'm glad that Holland was mentioned because some of my favorite 70s prog bands were Bonfire, Earth and Fire, Scope, Finch, Alquin and Trettioariga Kriget. Also, some favorites from Denmark were Hurdy Gurdy, Secret Oyster, System, Day Of Phoenix and Ache.
|
|
Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 13:43 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
2.- Prog was never the great force some people believe, in the 70's I went to the stores and found such bands as Tavares, The Spinners, Stylistics, Donna Summer, etc, and if lucky enough, one Yes or Pink Floyd album.
Yes, many more people knew Prog, but still the top 40's sucked as usual.
Iván |
We've been here before Iván.
As Fuxi mentioned earlier, in the UK the picture was very different. That may not mean very much on the global scheme of things, but where Prog originated it was very big and very popular. As I have said many times - people who buy R&B, Disco and Soul would never have bought a rock record in their lives, let alone a Prog record, it's a different demographic, a different type of person - just as today people into Hip-Hop are never going to be Indie fans - different people, different markets.
|
Yes, probably in UK, being that in the 70's I lived in Birnmingham Alabhama and Prog was also pretty unpopular, except for Kansas, Styx and believe it or not Yes, nobody knew Genesis, much less King Crimson or even Pink Floyd.
Sometimes in the Rock station some Prog was played but nothing more.
So apparently Prog was a regional phenomenom in the 70's.
Iván |
Northeast, Some midwest communities In Ohio, Inidiana, Millwaukee and Chicago and the west coast particulary California were hotbeds for proggresive rock The south and the west never really got into it.
|
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
|
|
Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 14:26 |
Garion81 wrote:
Northeast, Some midwest communities In Ohio, Inidiana, Millwaukee and Chicago and the west coast particulary California were hotbeds for proggresive rock The south and the west never really got into it.
|
I don't know about the West, but in parts of the South it was reasonably big otherwise I might not be here. I also don't accept that prog's heyday was just in the '70's. Of course it all depends on how you define heyday.
|
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
|
KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 573
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 15:00 |
|
Well by heyday I meant the peak of its mainstream success
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 15:54 |
debrewguy wrote:
Just a few quick notes
1) can we please put to rest the notion that prog is not popular. The so called golden age icons of the 70s sold tons of records, and toured to big crowds that compared very well to everyone else after Zep & the Stones and the mega million sellers like Fleetwood Mac. Yes Virginia, there was an actual healthy commercial market for prog bands. |
I still don't buy that, yes Prog was popular, maybe more in UK, but still they were behind the mega Pop stars IMO.
debrewguy wrote:
And the last two decades have certainly not been dry periods for prog either. Of course, some here suffer a persecution complex that insists on only using multi-platinum acts as measuring sticks. Please, so what if Creed sold 10 million copies per album. That has always been the nature of Pop music. Groups with hit singles sometimes sell more than the rest of the music groups that have lengthy careers.
Let's see - Marillion, IQ, Pendragon have managed to exists since the early 80s to today
King Crimson had a forty plus year career. Rush , Tull, Yes, are still going concerns that have no problems putting albums and touring after 30 - 40 years in the business. Even prog era Genesis still has enormous attraction to tour promoters for the financial rewards that could be reaped from even a short tour. No matter how it compares to "commerical era" Genesis. Cult bands like Gentle Giant managed to find enough of a market to re-issue their complete catalog this decade. The Strawbs still tour regularly under an acoustic version AND an electric one too! Dream Theater, Queensryche, are still doing very well, thank you. The prog metal scene, including the extreme and post sections are very vibrant. Tool ? Mars Volta ? Devin Townsend ?
So please, the notion of prog's unpopularity is based on nothing more than self pity. Prog has been around since the late 60s, and continues to thrive. .. |
Yes, Prog survived, but still not as a popular genre in comparison wuith POP, Rap, Hip Hop, Boys Bands, with little space on the radios, that's also undeniabble.
I, more than anybody would love to see a massive Prog, but that's not the case, the only way to measure popularity is by sales, like it or not.
So lets see the myth
1.- Choosed a random year 1973 (With the huge monster dark Side of the Moon)
2.- The only Prog song in the top 100 of Billboard is Money by Pink Floyd
3.- The top albums of 1973
We have 5 albums in the top 50, DSOTM that was a special phenomenom, Tubular Bells that got the promotion of The Exorcist, Roxy Music is can be called Prog, SEBTP, and larks Tongues in Aspic...Plus one Prog related which is Roxy Music
This means 10% (more or less) of the top 50
In 1974 without Dark Side of the Moon's influence, it wasn't that good:
- Pretzel Logic - Steely Dan
- Natty Dread - Bob Marley & The Wailers
- 461 Ocean Boulevard - Eric Clapton
- Crime Of The Century - Supertramp
- Country Life - Roxy Music
- Second Helping - Lynyrd Skynyrd
- Autobahn - Kraftwerk
- Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy) - Brian Eno
- I Want To See The Bright Lights Tonight - Richard & Linda Thompson
- Feats Don't Fail Me Now - Little Feat
- Nightbirds - LaBelle
- AWB - Average White Band
- Eldorado - Electric Light Orchestra
- Sheer Heart Attack - Queen
- Court And Spark - Joni Mitchell
- Here Come The Warm Jets - Brian Eno
- Late For The Sky - Jackson Browne
- Al Green Explores Your Mind - Al Green
- Secret Treaties - Blue Öyster Cult
- Too Much Too Soon - The New York Dolls
- Good Old Boys - Randy Newman
- Up For The Down Stroke - Parliament
- Paradise And Lunch - Ry Cooder
- Fulfillingness' First Finale - Stevie Wonder
- Wish You Were Here - Badfinger
- Bridge Of Sighs - Robin Trower
- Bad Company - Bad Company
- Skin Tight - The Ohio Players
- Spider Jiving - Andy Fairweather-Low
- Standing On The Verge Of Getting It On - Funkadelic
- The Heart Of Saturday Night - Tom Waits
- The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - Genesis
- Rejuvenation - The Meters
- Apostrophe - Frank Zappa
- Heart Like A Wheel - Linda Ronstadt
- All American Boy - Rick Derringer
- Dark Horse - George Harrison
- Can't Get Enough - Barry White
- Veedon Fleece - Van Morrison
- Sundown - Gordon Lightfoot
- Five To A Side - Ace
- Fear - John Cale
- Not Fragile - Bachman-Turner Overdrive
- Kimono My House - Sparks
- New Skin For The Old Ceremony - Leonard Cohen
- Okie - J.J. Cale
- Mysterious Traveller - Weather Report
- On The Beach - Neil Young
- Hell - James Brown
- Rags To Rufus - Rufus
Supertramp and ELO are not here for the Prog, but because of the mainstream audience who bought them massively, Kraftwerk Autobahn is not the most Prog album, the only ones I consider really Prog are Nºs 32 and 34, Genesis and Zappa.
So apparently my calculations of 10% at the most, are not far from the apparently facts, yes, Prog was big, 10% of the audience is a lot, but still a minority.
And today....Please Claude, we are way behind Pop, Rap, Hip Hop, Dance etc.
debrewguy wrote:
You may have heard of some of the fan sites that abound on the net like this one
 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2) PA's goal is not to promote obscure or unknown bands. It is "PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource." PA does not and never has made a group's popularity a determining factor in including or refusing them admission to our database. Though we all know that popular bands too often face mindless prejudices from some here because they enjoyed commercial success, which unfortunately for us, means that some famous groups that are equally as deserving as obscure bands already here , are left to the side as the fight will be too acrimonious. ALL bands should be considered on their merits. AND ALL HERE should know by now that those merits are measured subjectively.
3) Rush are a rock band. A famous one at that. Are we to institute a policy where we no longer review their albums, discuss them in threads, or even use their music as a comparison ? So that we don't boost their already high level of fame ? Oh wait, Crimson, Yes, Tull, Genesis, Dream Theater, ELO, Supertramp, Pink Floyd, Rush, Tool, Peter Gabriel, and many others surely need no further help in achieving name recognition. Strike them from the record Monsieur le Court Clerk ! |
If you had read my post;
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
but the mission of the site is to promote famous an obscure Prog bands, not to boost already famous Pop & Rock bands.
|
You wouldn't had lost a lot of time in numerals 2 and 3, because I mention famous and obscure BOTH.
Please read before replying, being that Rush is accepted as a Prog band.
debrewguy wrote:
4) the very nature of being a fan, which is a shortened form of the word fanatic, is that some fans will fight to a very allegorical death for their idols. Now, let's flip this one over - don't the dissenters do the same ?
Hendrix anyone ?
And the greater the assumed knowledge of a musical act's music, the greater the fight. No matter if either side's opinion is based only on knowing (not knowing of or reading about, actually having listened to it enough to form an informed opinion) a small percentage or ratio of the candidate's actual body of work ! |
Yes, I disagreed with Hendrix, but when was accepted I shut my mouth and even made a review in which I said I believe Hendrix deserves to be here
| When I saw the name of JIMI HENDRIX added to Proto Prog, I felt disappointed, there's no doubt the guy was influential for everything that came after him, but not especially to Prog, so got my old LP copy complemented with a CD a friend lend me of Electric Ladyland and my opinion changed a bit.
Still not totally convinced that the guy is so influential to Prog, but hey, his music was far more advanced than most of the musicians of his time, he was really crossing through uncharted territory, and that's one of the main characteristics of Prog, and at the end, Blues or not Blues, his music was ascribed to Psychedelia, and that's one of the main sources of Prog, so his addition can be accepted as logical, but would feel more comfortable at Prog Related, but that's not my call.
|
So again, before saying something...please research, ...................I'm allowed to disent, but I must show respect for the decisions of the site, and have the guts to accept i was wrong when the moment comes.
debrewguy wrote:
5) I don't believe that Dire Straits belong here. Their album Love Over Gold is an excellent example of why having an album only section would be interesting. But PA's current position, which I agree with, is that this idea would cause more grief that would overwhelm whatever benefits it could bring to your average prog treasure hunter. And we have seen some of their supporters change their minds. But frankly, I do not hesitate to admit that those who keep the battle on for admission are able to make a decent case for them. Not one that I see as sufficient, but a good one none the less. You're a lawyer Ivan, representing a case (here the arguement is that Dire Straits is worthy) is not based on being able to win after giving your opening statement. The case is closed only once the Judge determines it is, after an appropriate trial.
And so far, despite the PA admin's opinion that Dire Straits does not merit inclusion, it has allowed the debate (the trial if you will) to continue. |
Yes, like beating a dead horse as Raff said before me.
debrewguy wrote:
Why is that acceptable ? Again Hendrix anyone ? |
Read Ut Supra.
debrewguy wrote:
PA does not refuse outright any new arguement for previously refused groups. PA does however refuse to go over the same old ground over & over again. To the point where such threads will have links posted to related threads, and at a certain point, the "new" thread is closed. If I remember correctly, there has been one or two groups' fans that have enjoyed this treatment a few times.
But if someone comes back with new insight, with a fresh approach as to why a musical act has been unjustly denied admission, PA comes out ahead by allowing the possibility of appeal.
Again, emphasis on NEW, not just same old same old. |
Has Dire Straits released a new Prog album? Does this thread offers some new and revolutionary insight?
Honestly,. don't get the point of the rest of your post, so i will accept (I have no other choive) your God given right to rant.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 28 2009 at 20:24
|
|
|
|
GaryB
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 451
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 16:45 |
|
I recall recently seeing a type of bar chart on one of the prog sites that indicated prog's popularity by decades. The 60s, 80s, 90s and 2000-2009 had the bar reaching one or two or three at the most. In the 70s the bar reached eight or nine out of a possible ten. This is from memory and I may be a little off on the numbers but the 70s were far, far above the other decades. I recall this being based on overall popularity and did not intend to say that there hasn't been any good prog bands since the 70s.
|
|
Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 17:21 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
Northeast, Some midwest communities In Ohio, Inidiana, Millwaukee and Chicago and the west coast particulary California were hotbeds for proggresive rock The south and the west never really got into it.
|
I don't know about the West, but in parts of the South it was reasonably big otherwise I might not be here.
I also don't accept that prog's heyday was just in the '70's. Of course it all depends on how you define heyday.
|
I look at where the tours go for the most part. Atlanta is pretty good sized city and pretty progressive but overall Prog doesn't go through the south. In the west there weren't many cities big enough to support it outside of Denver and Phoenix. I notice even today there is little prog touring in any Western Cities outside of California. Seattle and Portland rarley gets shows.
To illistrate my point here are the North American dates for the Genesis tour two years ago:
Olympic Stadium in Montreal, PQ
Scotiabank Place in Kanata, ON
Hartford Civic Center in Hartford, CT
Wachovia Center in Philadelphia, PA
Nationwide Arena in Columbus, OH
Verizon Center in Washington, DC
Madison Square Garden in New York, NY
Giants Stadium in East Rutherford, NJ
Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland, OH
Palace of Auburn Hills in Auburn Hills, MI
United Center in Chicago, IL
Pepsi Center in Denver, CO
HP Pavilion in San Jose, CA
Arco Arena in Sacramento, CA
Hollywood Bowl in Los Angeles, CA
Not Prog enough for the point?  Here are the upcoming Yes/Asia tour dates:
June 26: Indio, CA (Fantasy Springs Casino)
June 27: Las Vegas, NV (Thomas & Mack Center)
June 30: Snoqualmie, WA (Snoqualmie Casino)
July 2: San Francisco, CA (Warfield)
July 3: Saratoga, CA (The Mountain Winery)
July 7: Los Angeles (Gibson Amphitheatre at City Walk)
July 8: San Diego (HumphreyÕs)
July 9: Phoenix (Dodge)
July 12: Denver (Paramount Theatre)
July 14: Kansas City, MO (Uptown Theater)
July 15: Ft. Worth, TX (Bass Music Center)
July 16: Muskegee, OK (Civic Center)
July 18: Walker, MN (Moondance Jam)
July 20: Detroit (DTE Energy Music Theatre)
July 21: Pittsburgh (Chevrolet Amphitheatre)
July 22: Glen Allen, VA (Insbrook Pavilion)
July 23: National Harbour, MD (Sunset Concerts)
July 25: Cohassett, MA (South Shore Music Circus)
July 26: Jackson, NJ (Great Adventure Amphitheatre)
July 28: Philadelphia (Tower Theatre)
July 29: Montclair, NJ (Wellmont Theatre)
July 31: Westbury, NY (Theatre at Westbury)
Aug. 1: Jamestown, NY (Savings Bank Arena)
Aug. 2: Bethlehem, PA (Musikfest)
While they have some dates like Phoenix, Vegas and Denver, and a couple of southern dates in TX, OK it avoids the entire southeast.
While I get your point of prog’s best days are not limited to the 70’s there can be no argument as to its popularity which is what I think this post was pointing too.
Edited by Garion81 - May 28 2009 at 17:23
|
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
|
|
Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 38332
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:15 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
debrewguy wrote:
Just a few quick notes
1) can we please put to rest the notion that prog is not popular. The so called golden age icons of the 70s sold tons of records, and toured to big crowds that compared very well to everyone else after Zep & the Stones and the mega million sellers like Fleetwood Mac. Yes Virginia, there was an actual healthy commercial market for prog bands. |
I still don't buy that, yes Prog was popular, maybe more in UK, but still they were behind the mega Pop stars IMO.
debrewguy wrote:
And the last two decades have certainly not been dry periods for prog either. Of course, some here suffer a persecution complex that insists on only using multi-platinum acts as measuring sticks. Please, so what if Creed sold 10 million copies per album. That has always been the nature of Pop music. Groups with hit singles sometimes sell more than the rest of the music groups that have lengthy careers.
Let's see - Marillion, IQ, Pendragon have managed to exists since the early 80s to today
King Crimson had a forty plus year career. Rush , Tull, Yes, are still going concerns that have no problems putting albums and touring after 30 - 40 years in the business. Even prog era Genesis still has enormous attraction to tour promoters for the financial rewards that could be reaped from even a short tour. No matter how it compares to "commerical era" Genesis. Cult bands like Gentle Giant managed to find enough of a market to re-issue their complete catalog this decade. The Strawbs still tour regularly under an acoustic version AND an electric one too! Dream Theater, Queensryche, are still doing very well, thank you. The prog metal scene, including the extreme and post sections are very vibrant. Tool ? Mars Volta ? Devin Townsend ?
So please, the notion of prog's unpopularity is based on nothing more than self pity. Prog has been around since the late 60s, and continues to thrive. .. |
Yes, Prog survived, but still not as a popular genre in comparison wuith POP, Rap, Hip Hop, Boys Bands, with little space on the radios, that's also undeniabble.
I, more than anybody would love to see a massive Prog, but that's not the case, the only way to measure popularity is by sales, like it or not.
So lets see the myth
1.- Choosed a random year 1973 (With the huge monster dark Side of the Moon)
2.- The only Prog song in the top 100 of Billboard is Money by Pink Floyd
3.- The top albums of 1973
We have 5 albums in the top 50, DSOTM that was a special phenomenom, Tubular Bells that got the promotion of The Exorcist, Roxy Music is can be called Prog, SEBTP, and larks Tongues in Aspic...Plus one Prog related which is Roxy Music
This means 10% (more or less) of the top 50
In 1974 without Dark Side of the Moon's influence, it wasn't that good:
- Pretzel Logic - Steely Dan
- Natty Dread - Bob Marley & The Wailers
- 461 Ocean Boulevard - Eric Clapton
- Crime Of The Century - Supertramp
- Country Life - Roxy Music
- Second Helping - Lynyrd Skynyrd
- Autobahn - Kraftwerk
- Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy) - Brian Eno
- I Want To See The Bright Lights Tonight - Richard & Linda Thompson
- Feats Don't Fail Me Now - Little Feat
- Nightbirds - LaBelle
- AWB - Average White Band
- Eldorado - Electric Light Orchestra
- Sheer Heart Attack - Queen
- Court And Spark - Joni Mitchell
- Here Come The Warm Jets - Brian Eno
- Late For The Sky - Jackson Browne
- Al Green Explores Your Mind - Al Green
- Secret Treaties - Blue Öyster Cult
- Too Much Too Soon - The New York Dolls
- Good Old Boys - Randy Newman
- Up For The Down Stroke - Parliament
- Paradise And Lunch - Ry Cooder
- Fulfillingness' First Finale - Stevie Wonder
- Wish You Were Here - Badfinger
- Bridge Of Sighs - Robin Trower
- Bad Company - Bad Company
- Skin Tight - The Ohio Players
- Spider Jiving - Andy Fairweather-Low
- Standing On The Verge Of Getting It On - Funkadelic
- The Heart Of Saturday Night - Tom Waits
- The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - Genesis
- Rejuvenation - The Meters
- Apostrophe - Frank Zappa
- Heart Like A Wheel - Linda Ronstadt
- All American Boy - Rick Derringer
- Dark Horse - George Harrison
- Can't Get Enough - Barry White
- Veedon Fleece - Van Morrison
- Sundown - Gordon Lightfoot
- Five To A Side - Ace
- Fear - John Cale
- Not Fragile - Bachman-Turner Overdrive
- Kimono My House - Sparks
- New Skin For The Old Ceremony - Leonard Cohen
- Okie - J.J. Cale
- Mysterious Traveller - Weather Report
- On The Beach - Neil Young
- Hell - James Brown
- Rags To Rufus - Rufus
Supertramp, Queen and ELO are not here for the Prog, bjut tbecause of the mainstream audience who bought them massively, Kraftwerk Autobahn is not the most Prog album, the only ones I consider really Prog are Nºs 32 and 34, Genesis and Zappa.
So apparently my calculations of 10% at the most, are not far from the apparently facts, yes, Prog was big, 10% of the audience is a lot, but still a minority.
And today....Please Claude, we are way behind Pop, Rap, Hip Hop, Dance etc.
debrewguy wrote:
You may have heard of some of the fan sites that abound on the net like this one
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2) PA's goal is not to promote obscure or unknown bands. It is "PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource." PA does not and never has made a group's popularity a determining factor in including or refusing them admission to our database. Though we all know that popular bands too often face mindless prejudices from some here because they enjoyed commercial success, which unfortunately for us, means that some famous groups that are equally as deserving as obscure bands already here , are left to the side as the fight will be too acrimonious. ALL bands should be considered on their merits. AND ALL HERE should know by now that those merits are measured subjectively.
3) Rush are a rock band. A famous one at that. Are we to institute a policy where we no longer review their albums, discuss them in threads, or even use their music as a comparison ? So that we don't boost their already high level of fame ? Oh wait, Crimson, Yes, Tull, Genesis, Dream Theater, ELO, Supertramp, Pink Floyd, Rush, Tool, Peter Gabriel, and many others surely need no further help in achieving name recognition. Strike them from the record Monsieur le Court Clerk ! |
If you had read my post;
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
but the mission of the site is to promote famous an obscure Prog bands, not to boost already famous Pop & Rock bands.
|
You wouldn't had lost a lot of time in numerals 2 and 3, because I mention famous and obscure BOTH.
Please read before replying, being that Rush is accepted as a Prog band.
debrewguy wrote:
4) the very nature of being a fan, which is a shortened form of the word fanatic, is that some fans will fight to a very allegorical death for their idols. Now, let's flip this one over - don't the dissenters do the same ?
Hendrix anyone ?
And the greater the assumed knowledge of a musical act's music, the greater the fight. No matter if either side's opinion is based only on knowing (not knowing of or reading about, actually having listened to it enough to form an informed opinion) a small percentage or ratio of the candidate's actual body of work ! |
Yes, I disagreed with Hendrix, but when was accepted I shut my mouth and even made a review in which I said I believe Hendrix deserves to be here
| When I saw the name of JIMI HENDRIX added to Proto Prog, I felt disappointed, there's no doubt the guy was influential for everything that came after him, but not especially to Prog, so got my old LP copy complemented with a CD a friend lend me of Electric Ladyland and my opinion changed a bit.
Still not totally convinced that the guy is so influential to Prog, but hey, his music was far more advanced than most of the musicians of his time, he was really crossing through uncharted territory, and that's one of the main characteristics of Prog, and at the end, Blues or not Blues, his music was ascribed to Psychedelia, and that's one of the main sources of Prog, so his addition can be accepted as logical, but would feel more comfortable at Prog Related, but that's not my call.
|
So again, before saying something...please research, ...................I'm allowed to disent, but I must show respect for the decisions of the site, and have the guts to accept i was wrong when the moment comes.
debrewguy wrote:
5) I don't believe that Dire Straits belong here. Their album Love Over Gold is an excellent example of why having an album only section would be interesting. But PA's current position, which I agree with, is that this idea would cause more grief that would overwhelm whatever benefits it could bring to your average prog treasure hunter. And we have seen some of their supporters change their minds. But frankly, I do not hesitate to admit that those who keep the battle on for admission are able to make a decent case for them. Not one that I see as sufficient, but a good one none the less. You're a lawyer Ivan, representing a case (here the arguement is that Dire Straits is worthy) is not based on being able to win after giving your opening statement. The case is closed only once the Judge determines it is, after an appropriate trial.
And so far, despite the PA admin's opinion that Dire Straits does not merit inclusion, it has allowed the debate (the trial if you will) to continue. |
Yes, like beating a dead horse as Raff said before me.
debrewguy wrote:
Why is that acceptable ? Again Hendrix anyone ? |
Read Ut Supra.
debrewguy wrote:
PA does not refuse outright any new arguement for previously refused groups. PA does however refuse to go over the same old ground over & over again. To the point where such threads will have links posted to related threads, and at a certain point, the "new" thread is closed. If I remember correctly, there has been one or two groups' fans that have enjoyed this treatment a few times.
But if someone comes back with new insight, with a fresh approach as to why a musical act has been unjustly denied admission, PA comes out ahead by allowing the possibility of appeal.
Again, emphasis on NEW, not just same old same old. |
Has Dire Straits released a new Prog album? Does this thread offers some new and revolutionary insight?
Honestly,. don't get the point of the rest of your post, so i will accept (I have no other choive) your God given right to rant.
Iván
|
Ivan, I don't understand your use of red font in those lists since there are albums deemed Prog and Prog Related in them that are in the archives that you don't highlight, and others which have cases for being in the archives. The Prog and Prog Related quotient is quite high for me in those lists.
|
|
"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967).
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:32 |
^ Can is not prog  when did that happen?
|
|
What?
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
How Popular was Prog in its Heyday?