How Popular was Prog in its Heyday? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Evolver

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:53

Prog in the 70s was somewhat mainstream. There were quite a few bands who could easily fill arenas, Yes, ELP, Zappa, Floyd, etc. would fill the largest venues year after year. The major labels were behind the genre enough to constantly look for new prog acts for their stables.

I don't believe punk or disco killed mainstream prog. I think it was the greedy record labels. Prog is not easy or cheap to produce or market to the masses. In the late 70s a concerted effort was made to constantly label complex music as pretentious, pompous, elitist and such. The mainstream press, probably pushed by the major labels barraged their readers with such epithets, until it became "uncool" to like anything but the simplistic pablum they were offering. What was supposedly great music in the late 70's and eighties (Talking Heads, The Cars, Eurythmics, Tears For Fears, whatever), all sounds incredibly banal to me.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

Bitterblogger View Drop Down

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:27

Progosopher wrote:

Look at R)olling Stone, though, and see how many Yes albums received high ratings. Relayer was given five stars.

Sorry, but you're utterly wrong. Here's the Relayer review in the June 19, 1975 RS (the 1st part talks about Yesterdays):

"Yes's last album, Tales from Topographic Oceans, was four sides' worth of hopelessly dense complexity that left many observers recoiling in utter dismay and taxed even the group's most ardent supporters.

"Relayer may exhaust even the devoted. Singer Jon Anderson's words plumb new depths of turgidity. Side one of Relayer is taken up by a 22-minute track called "The Gates of Delirium," a titanic battle-of-the-mind-forces allegory of sorts. A sample stanza:

"Choose and renounce throwing chains to the floor
Kill or be killing faster sins correct the flow
Casting giant shadows off vast
Penetrating force
To alter via the war that seen
As friction spans the spirits wrath ascending (slowly) to redeem

"Pretentious balderdash no matter how you stack it and the remaining lyrics are only marginally clearer.

"The music seems equally chaotic. Opening with sheets of cascading guitars and wheeling Mellotrons, it breaks off into a fairly melodic vocal segment. This is followed by a seemingly endless frenzy of clattering, discordant guitar work and demoniacal synthesized electronics. Finally an infusion of lyrical guitar and soaring Mellotron signals battle's end, with a strangely MOR-oriented vocal section closing the piece.

"On the other side, "Sound Chaser" brims with jagged, randomized riffs and discordant fragments, quite intricate, with no identifying structural links. "To Be Over," however, has a pretty (though ponderously structured) melody and some tasteful guitar work.

Relayer, despite occasional enjoyable interludes, is an excessive, pretentious and ill-conceived album. The folly of Yes's extreme approach is becoming only too apparent."

You'd be stretching to make this into two stars.

cobb2

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:38

To the above post quoting Rolling Stone. Before Tales Yes were the golden boys of Rolling Stone. You could even say that Tales was the downfall of 'pretentious' music to the masses.

In its heyday prog wasn't called prog- it was just part of the music scene and accepted as such.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:11

Logan wrote:

Ivan, I don't understand your use of red font in those lists since there are albums deemed Prog and Prog Related in them that are in the archives that you don't highlight, and others which have cases for being in the archives. The Prog and Prog Related quotient is quite high for me in those lists.

Because bands as The Who or Steely Dan were not consider remotely Prog in the 70's, we consider them Prog Related or crossover, because our definition is wider, but not then, and that's OK with me, but I have retired Prog Related bands because we accept as a fact that they are not Prog.

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre

They may be in PA, but for my point, non Prog bands are irrelevant.

BTW: Dean Can and Faust are a mistake, didn't saw them, but still the percentage is close to 10%.

And if we took Billboard charts (they sell them now so I couldn't get them), the percentage would be lower.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 28 2009 at 20:28

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:16

Garion81 wrote:

Atlanta is pretty good sized city and pretty progressive but overall Prog doesn't go through the south.

Yeah, I noticed Gentle Giant skipped us on their Playing The Fool Tour however they did come by on their last one for Civillian. I saw Allan Holdsworth on his I.O.U. tour. Bruford came by right after Holdsworth had left. King Crimson came by on the Discipline tour. Pat Metheny for Offramp. Steve Hackett for Cured. Fred Frith with Skeleton Crew. Nektar came through a couple of times. OK some of this is post heyday. I supposed it was sort of spotty compared to other locations. We do often get passed up though.

Bitterblogger wrote:

"Pretentious balderdash no matter how you stack it and the remaining lyrics are only marginally clearer.

Relayer, despite occasional enjoyable interludes, is an excessive, pretentious and ill-conceived album. The folly of Yes's extreme approach is becoming only too apparent."

And just who is being pretentious here? Critics really loved to bandy that word about pretending that they actually understood the music. He used pretentious twice, what an inarticulate boob! By the way, do you have the name of the "critic"?

Edited by Slartibartfast - May 28 2009 at 20:24

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:25

Slartibartfast wrote:

He used pretentious twice, what an inarticulate boob!

debrewguy

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 21:39

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Just a few quick notes
1) can we please put to rest the notion that prog is not popular. The so called golden age icons of the 70s sold tons of records, and toured to big crowds that compared very well to everyone else after Zep & the Stones and the mega million sellers like Fleetwood Mac. Yes Virginia, there was an actual healthy commercial market for prog bands.

I still don't buy that, yes Prog was popular, maybe more in UK, but still they were behind the mega Pop stars IMO.

DB - Of course, the arguement could be made that country is less popular than prog because Pink Floyd sold more records than Garth Brooks. That heavy metal is more popular than pop because Metallica has sold more than Backstreet Boys. Or that Reggae is more popular than R & B because Marley outsells Tina Turner.

Of course, we could also assign a biased assessment of what genre the Beatles or Elvis belong to, and extrapolate that that genre is the most popular one. But that wouldn't be too scientific, eh.

debrewguy wrote:

And the last two decades have certainly not been dry periods for prog either. Of course, some here suffer a persecution complex that insists on only using multi-platinum acts as measuring sticks. Please, so what if Creed sold 10 million copies per album. That has always been the nature of Pop music. Groups with hit singles sometimes sell more than the rest of the music groups that have lengthy careers.
Let's see - Marillion, IQ, Pendragon have managed to exists since the early 80s to today
King Crimson had a forty plus year career. Rush , Tull, Yes, are still going concerns that have no problems putting albums and touring after 30 - 40 years in the business. Even prog era Genesis still has enormous attraction to tour promoters for the financial rewards that could be reaped from even a short tour. No matter how it compares to "commerical era" Genesis. Cult bands like Gentle Giant managed to find enough of a market to re-issue their complete catalog this decade. The Strawbs still tour regularly under an acoustic version AND an electric one too! Dream Theater, Queensryche, are still doing very well, thank you. The prog metal scene, including the extreme and post sections are very vibrant. Tool ? Mars Volta ? Devin Townsend ?
So please, the notion of prog's unpopularity is based on nothing more than self pity. Prog has been around since the late 60s, and continues to thrive. ..

Yes, Prog survived, but still not as a popular genre in comparison wuith POP, Rap, Hip Hop, Boys Bands, with little space on the radios, that's also undeniabble.
DB - please feel free to ask the captain of the Titanic how reliable a measure the tip of an iceberg can be ...

I, more than anybody would love to see a massive Prog, but that's not the case, the only way to measure popularity is by sales, like it or not.

So lets see the myth

1.- Choosed a random year 1973 (With the huge monster dark Side of the Moon)

2.- The only Prog song in the top 100 of Billboard is Money by Pink Floyd

3.- The top albums of 1973

DB - if you wish to show that prog only took up a certain space in the top 100, can you also be asked to identify the percentages that other genres occupied in these same charts ? SO instead of saying "prog is only 10%", and leaving the impression that the rest was one monolithic single all encompassing genre, why not tell us how many albums were considered to be Pop, Country, Glam, Hard Rock, R & B, Jazz, Reggae, and any other genre that was represented by at least one album. Would that give us a better view of the relative popularity or unpopularity of prog vs the others ?


1	21	Pink Floyd	The Dark Side of the Moon db - prog
2	46	Stevie Wonder	Innervisions db - soul
3	94	Roxy Music	For Your Pleasure db - pop/glam/prog
4	102	Iggy and The Stooges	Raw Power db - punk or proto punk
5	139	New York Dolls	New York Dolls db - glam / rock n roll / proto punk
6	141	Elton John	Goodbye Yellow Brick Road db - pop. classic, intelligently written, pop music. well deserving of all the success it received because of one simple fact - great songs.
7	157	The Wailers	Catch a Fire db - reggae
8	177	Marvin Gaye	Let's Get It On db - R & B / Motown
9	197	Lou Reed	Berlin db - hard to really pin down - proto punk / rock n roll ?
10	255	Al Green	Call Me db - soul
11	273	Mike Oldfield	Tubular Bells db - prog
12	370	John Cale	Paris 1919 db - avant-garde
13	385	Steely Dan	Countdown to Ecstasy db - jazz rock / fusion
14	386	Paul McCartney and Wings	Band on the Run db - he's an ex-Beatles and Rock Icon.
15	391	Eno	Here Come the Warm Jets db - prog
16	398	Gram Parsons	G.P. db - country rock. Nowadays he'd be labelled alt-country
17	426	The Wailers	Burnin' db - reggae
18	432	The Who	Quadrophenia db - classic rock, PA says prog
19	457	Led Zeppelin	Houses of the Holy db - Rock, metal to some, prog related to PA. this album has a variety of styles - funk, reggae, pop, prog, hard rock, folk. typical zep mix, eh.
20	471	David Bowie	Aladdin Sane db - glam is insufficient. PA has him in, right ?
21	517	Little Feat	Dixie Chicken db - southern rock, but that's doesn't cover their sound - R & B, Blues, Jazz. Heck Lowell George played with Zappa
22	524	Herbie Hancock	Head Hunters db - Jazz . Or Jazz Rock /Fusion
23	526	Mott the Hoople	Mott db - glam
24	531	John Martyn	Solid Air db - folk
25	576	Lynyrd Skynyrd	(Pronounced Leh-Nerd Skin-Nerd) db - southern rock. again insufficient description
26	577	Sly and the Family Stone	Fresh db - soul, funk, R & B
27	593	Roxy Music	Stranded db - glam, pop, prog
28	631	Can	Future Days db - krautrock
29	657	Bruce Springsteen	The Wild, the Innocent & the E Street Shuffle db - rock n roll
30	658	Todd Rundgren	A Wizard, a True Star db - pop, but PA says prog
31	707	Genesis	Selling England by the Pound \db = prog
32	818	Paul Simon	There Goes Rhymin' Simon db - folk, but rock/pop folk
33	903	The Isley Brothers	3+3 db - funk / r & B
34	933	Toots and The Maytals	Funky Kingston db - reggae
35	1004	The Eagles	Desperado db - country rock. Also one of their best.
36	1221	ZZ Top	Tres Hombres db - southern rock. weak description for any so called southern rock band
37	1246	Alice Cooper	Billion Dollar Babies db - glam, proto punk, rock, theatrical.
38	1267	Lee Perry	Blackboard Jungle Dub db - dub progenitor
39	1323	Waylon Jennings	Honky Tonk Heroes db - outlaw country, country radio played him after they saw that this was the new country that listeners wanted
40	1360	Big Youth	Screaming Target db - this is one I actually have to look up. Reggae ?
41	1385	Black Sabbath	Sabbath Bloody Sabbath db - metal , PA has 'em
42	1390	Tom Waits	Closing Time db - how do you describe Tom Waits ?
43	1409	The Spinners	The Spinners db - R & B
44	1579	King Crimson	Larks' Tongues in Aspic db - prog
45	1587	Kevin Coyne	Marjory Razorblade db - unknown.
46	1629	Bruce Springsteen	Greetings from Asbury Park N.J. db - rock n roll
47	1676	McCoy Tyner	Enlightenment db - jazz
48	1747	Hawkwind	Space Ritual db - prog
49	1763	Jackson Browne	For Everyman db - california singer songwriter rock
50	1808	Faust	The Faust Tapes db - prog.

We have 5 albums in the top 50, DSOTM that was a special phenomenom, Tubular Bells that got the promotion of The Exorcist, Roxy Music is can be called Prog, SEBTP, and larks Tongues in Aspic...Plus one Prog related which is Roxy Music

DB - did you notice that Hawkwind outsold Jackson Browne ? That Lee Perry outsold Sabbath ? Does it tell you that one album's sales do not represent a whole genre ?

This means 10% (more or less) of the top 50
DB - And the other 90% was made up of music from what genre(s) ? And how did prog stand compared to these other genre(s) ?

In 1974 without Dark Side of the Moon's influence, it wasn't that good:

Pretzel Logic - Steely Dan db - listed as prog by PA
Natty Dread - Bob Marley & The Wailers db - reggae, now there's a genre that dominates music charts, eh.
461 Ocean Boulevard - Eric Clapton db - blues rock, influenced by that diamond seller - JJ Cale.
Crime Of The Century - Supertramp DB - that's strange. already two prog bands in the top 4.
Country Life - Roxy Music db - 3 out of 5 are listed at PA, hmmmm
Second Helping - Lynyrd Skynyrd- db - not pop by a million miles. rock, country, blues, some jazz, and some folk. one kind of southern rock
Autobahn - Kraftwerk db - damn, we've already got 4 out of the top 7 albums that happen to be listed at PA
Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy) - Brian Eno db - prog ? I think so.
I Want To See The Bright Lights Tonight - Richard & Linda Thompson db - a perfect example of the worst kind of pop music. music that is popular because it is popular with people.
Feats Don't Fail Me Now - Little Feat db - still waiting for that massive wave of pop music in these charts,
Nightbirds - LaBelle db - R & B. Labelle would bitchslap you if you called her Pop. And deservedly so.
AWB - Average White Band db -average white r & b
Eldorado - Electric Light Orchestra db - another band listed at PA. My God !
Sheer Heart Attack - Queen db - obviously shouldn't be allowed to have been admitted to PA, a prog music web site.
Court And Spark - Joni Mitchell db - jazz
Here Come The Warm Jets - Brian Eno db - can you point out some prog albums somewhere here.
Late For The Sky - Jackson Browne db - singer wongwriter, a stretch to call it pop. which it was not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I ain't gonna bother dividing up the rest.
Al Green Explores Your Mind - Al Green
Secret Treaties - Blue Öyster Cult
Too Much Too Soon - The New York Dolls
Good Old Boys - Randy Newman
Up For The Down Stroke - Parliament
Paradise And Lunch - Ry Cooder
Fulfillingness' First Finale - Stevie Wonder
Wish You Were Here - Badfinger
Bridge Of Sighs - Robin Trower
Bad Company - Bad Company
Skin Tight - The Ohio Players
Spider Jiving - Andy Fairweather-Low
Standing On The Verge Of Getting It On - Funkadelic
The Heart Of Saturday Night - Tom Waits
The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - Genesis
Rejuvenation - The Meters
Apostrophe - Frank Zappa
Heart Like A Wheel - Linda Ronstadt
All American Boy - Rick Derringer
Dark Horse - George Harrison
Can't Get Enough - Barry White
Veedon Fleece - Van Morrison
Sundown - Gordon Lightfoot
Five To A Side - Ace
Fear - John Cale
Not Fragile - Bachman-Turner Overdrive
Kimono My House - Sparks
New Skin For The Old Ceremony - Leonard Cohen
Okie - J.J. Cale
Mysterious Traveller - Weather Report
On The Beach - Neil Young
Hell - James Brown
Rags To Rufus - Rufus

Supertramp, Queen and ELO are not here for the Prog, bjut tbecause of the mainstream audience who bought them massively, Kraftwerk Autobahn is not the most Prog album, the only ones I consider really Prog are Nºs 32 and 34, Genesis and Zappa.

db - so some prog is prog, and some isn't depending on whether you say so. I would refer to the PA database. We can even limit ourselves to full prog genres, i.e. no prog related. So, I think there's 10 in the above 51 . Not bad for unpopularity ...Please feel free to follow up with a breakdown for the quantities assignable to other music genres. Then we can discuss if there really was one dominant type of music. Again, I would present the opinion that the top 50 represents the tip of the iceberg. That is, it tells us nothing about the majority of the albums sold that year, nor the amount of tickets bought for live shows.

So apparently my calculations of 10% at the most, are not far from the apparently facts, yes, Prog was big, 10% of the audience is a lot, but still a minority.

And today....Please Claude, we are way behind Pop, Rap, Hip Hop, Dance etc.

db - would you agree that the captain of the Titanic erred in basing his opinion on only being able to see the tip of the iceberg ?

debrewguy wrote:

You may have heard of some of the fan sites that abound on the net like this one

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2) PA's goal is not to promote obscure or unknown bands. It is "PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource." PA does not and never has made a group's popularity a determining factor in including or refusing them admission to our database. Though we all know that popular bands too often face mindless prejudices from some here because they enjoyed commercial success, which unfortunately for us, means that some famous groups that are equally as deserving as obscure bands already here , are left to the side as the fight will be too acrimonious. ALL bands should be considered on their merits. AND ALL HERE should know by now that those merits are measured subjectively.

3) Rush are a rock band. A famous one at that. Are we to institute a policy where we no longer review their albums, discuss them in threads, or even use their music as a comparison ? So that we don't boost their already high level of fame ? Oh wait, Crimson, Yes, Tull, Genesis, Dream Theater, ELO, Supertramp, Pink Floyd, Rush, Tool, Peter Gabriel, and many others surely need no further help in achieving name recognition. Strike them from the record Monsieur le Court Clerk !

If you had read my post;

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

but the mission of the site is to promote famous an obscure Prog bands, not to boost already famous Pop & Rock bands.

You wouldn't had lost a lot of time in numerals 2 and 3, because I mention famous and obscure BOTH.

Please read before replying, being that Rush is accepted as a Prog band.
db - but many consider Rush a rock band, or even a heavy metal band. And a famous one at that. Can PA still promote them despite those people's belief ? Being a Rush fan from way back then, I remember them being touring with Foghat on a co-headlining trip. Many anti-metal or anti hard rock critics lumped them in with Kiss, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent & Judas Priest. What if we're wrong and they're just an intelligent Rock Band ?

debrewguy wrote:

4) the very nature of being a fan, which is a shortened form of the word fanatic, is that some fans will fight to a very allegorical death for their idols. Now, let's flip this one over - don't the dissenters do the same ?
Hendrix anyone ?
And the greater the assumed knowledge of a musical act's music, the greater the fight. No matter if either side's opinion is based only on knowing (not knowing of or reading about, actually having listened to it enough to form an informed opinion) a small percentage or ratio of the candidate's actual body of work !

Yes, I disagreed with Hendrix, but when was accepted I shut my mouth and even made a review in which I said I believe Hendrix deserves to be here

When I saw the name of JIMI HENDRIX added to Proto Prog, I felt disappointed, there's no doubt the guy was influential for everything that came after him, but not especially to Prog, so got my old LP copy complemented with a CD a friend lend me of Electric Ladyland and my opinion changed a bit.

Still not totally convinced that the guy is so influential to Prog, but hey, his music was far more advanced than most of the musicians of his time, he was really crossing through uncharted territory, and that's one of the main characteristics of Prog, and at the end, Blues or not Blues, his music was ascribed to Psychedelia, and that's one of the main sources of Prog, so his addition can be accepted as logical, but would feel more comfortable at Prog Related, but that's not my call.

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=210967

db - so you would agree that some artists just need the proper case presented before they are accepted into PA's database ? After all, this process was not successful on the first try ....

So again, before saying something...please research, ...................I'm allowed to disent, but I must show respect for the decisions of the site, and have the guts to accept i was wrong when the moment comes.

debrewguy wrote:

5) I don't believe that Dire Straits belong here. Their album Love Over Gold is an excellent example of why having an album only section would be interesting. But PA's current position, which I agree with, is that this idea would cause more grief that would overwhelm whatever benefits it could bring to your average prog treasure hunter. And we have seen some of their supporters change their minds. But frankly, I do not hesitate to admit that those who keep the battle on for admission are able to make a decent case for them. Not one that I see as sufficient, but a good one none the less. You're a lawyer Ivan, representing a case (here the arguement is that Dire Straits is worthy) is not based on being able to win after giving your opening statement. The case is closed only once the Judge determines it is, after an appropriate trial.
And so far, despite the PA admin's opinion that Dire Straits does not merit inclusion, it has allowed the debate (the trial if you will) to continue.

Yes, like beating a dead horse as Raff said before me.

db - my comments there amount to this - we find it excessive only when the other side does it. I do believe that the dissenters (those against Dire Straits admission, which I am one) are still posting to this thread. Should they stop beating this dead horse ?

debrewguy wrote:

Why is that acceptable ? Again Hendrix anyone ?

Read Ut Supra.

debrewguy wrote:

PA does not refuse outright any new arguement for previously refused groups. PA does however refuse to go over the same old ground over & over again. To the point where such threads will have links posted to related threads, and at a certain point, the "new" thread is closed. If I remember correctly, there has been one or two groups' fans that have enjoyed this treatment a few times.
But if someone comes back with new insight, with a fresh approach as to why a musical act has been unjustly denied admission, PA comes out ahead by allowing the possibility of appeal.
Again, emphasis on NEW, not just same old same old.

Has Dire Straits released a new Prog album? Does this thread offers some new and revolutionary insight?

Honestly,. don't get the point of the rest of your post, so i will accept (I have no other choive) your God given right to rant.

Iván

DB - I have seen some proponents change their opinions. I have seen some dissidents acknowledge the merit of the proposal while still opposing their inclusion. So far, PA's admin has seen fit to allow the conversation to continue. Just as we are doing. Right ?
As far as ranting, well the pot says hi to the kettle.
And honestly, I still don't see the point of consistently putting out the lie that Prog is unpopular because the top 20/50/100 chart of any given year did not consists of 50% or more prog albums. And I add to that, the question as to why the great majority of albums & tickets sold that do not show on these charts do not even get a mention from you. The info is out there. It is much harder to google it, if not impossible. But record labels do not survive by releasing only a few albums per year. So Pendragon doesn't appear on any Billboard charts. But they have sold more albums than the Raes. You know, the Raes, the canadian disco/pop duo from the 70s ... Ipso Facto, Neo Prog is & was more popular than disco and pop. Right ?

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 22:14

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Prog was never dominant, I been in the 70's and hardly the average Joe listened Prog.

It was one of the most popular of the obscure genres.

Iván

Yeah, like country, heavy metal, hard rock, bluegrass, gospel, jazz rock / fusion.
I've always like to make general statements based on my own little world.
Such as , just about everyone is Catholic, most don't go to church, have short hair, including the females, drink alcohol, listen to Styx, AC/DC, .
Every now & then I meet people who aren't like that. But very few, so they must be the exception ....

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 22:16

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

2.- Prog was never the great force some people believe, in the 70's I went to the stores and found such bands as Tavares, The Spinners, Stylistics, Donna Summer, etc, and if lucky enough, one Yes or Pink Floyd album.

Yes, many more people knew Prog, but still the top 40's sucked as usual.

Iván

We've been here before Iván.

As Fuxi mentioned earlier, in the UK the picture was very different. That may not mean very much on the global scheme of things, but where Prog originated it was very big and very popular. As I have said many times - people who buy R&B, Disco and Soul would never have bought a rock record in their lives, let alone a Prog record, it's a different demographic, a different type of person - just as today people into Hip-Hop are never going to be Indie fans - different people, different markets.

Yes, probably in UK, being that in the 70's I lived in Birnmingham Alabhama and Prog was also pretty unpopular, except for Kansas, Styx and believe it or not Yes, nobody knew Genesis, much less King Crimson or even Pink Floyd.

Sometimes in the Rock station some Prog was played but nothing more.

So apparently Prog was a regional phenomenom in the 70's.

Iván

So prog was unpopular except for 3 major big name acts ?

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 22:27

GaryB wrote:

In 1975-76-77 I was the manager at a record store here in the Los Angeles area called Licorice Pizza. My store was number one in sales out of the sixteen stores in the chain so I can tell you what the kids were buying back then. BTW, the term "progressive" was just starting to be used to describe any rock music that was not rock and roll based or blues based.

Genesis was popular but was outsold by ELP and they were both outsold by Yes. Of course Pink Floyd was doing well with Wish You Were Here and Animals. Ziggy Stardust was still big but Bowie had more success with what some called his disco period (???) with songs like Young Americans and Modern Love. The middle version of Fleetwood Mac hooked up with Buckingham Nicks and their sales went through the roof. Aqualung made Jethro Tull a household name and some fans were stoned enough to call Robin Trower the greatest guitarist on the planet. Flo and Eddie hooked up with Zappa and the result was pretty positive.

Closer to my taste, rock guitarists like Jeff Beck and Tommy Bolin were "crossing over" and playing with jazz artists like Stanley Clarke, Billy Cobham, Lenny White, etc. Also, Return To Forever and Jean Luc Ponty were starting to receive well deserved recognition.

These are just a few things I remember off the top of my head (that was well over thirty years ago).

I'm sorry, but your personal experience does not jive with subjective reality as lived by others.
Although ... well ... actually ... you know ... before prog was called prog ... we did use to listen to quite a bit of it. Same as with pop. Strange how some top 40 AM stations played just about any genre because the songs were popular, and not because they fit the mold. I remember Kiss, Kansas, Yes' Roundabout, Billy Joel, Hamilton Franks Reynolds, and the Bay City Rollers being played on the same station.

Now mind you , it depends on who's calling what prog.
I remember buying Never Mind the Bollocks at a record shop (not a used one) and the clerk bluntly telling me that he thought they were absolute crap. I'd overheard him earlier rave about Foreigner (their debut was just out) Cat Stevens and stuff like that. The "safe" serious rock music, if you will.
I always hated that sort of attitude. Which is why I became a frequent customer of the local Sam the Record Man franchise (now Frank's Music). Their staff was knowledgeable and made no judgements on the music you wanted to buy or ask about. And even when you got to know them well enough, they made a point of always mentioning that their opinions were nothing more than that. They might hate , say Deep Purple, or the Clash ... but they let you know that it was their opinion, not a judgement of the music's value. I spent a good part of my student loan there those first two years . Tongue

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 22:30

debrewguy wrote:

I've always like to make general statements based on my own little world.
Such as , just about everyone is Catholic, most don't go to church, have short hair, including the females, drink alcohol, listen to Styx, AC/DC, .
Every now & then I meet people who aren't like that. But very few, so they must be the exception ....

that's an interesting observation

popularity and sales are sometimes two different things of course, and what we now deem Prog certainly had its ringers: Jethro Tull has always been a favorite among a very wide base from hippies to headbangers, heck my mom liked them (and she was no progster), and ELP was one of the titans of the so-called arena rock era, Rush too in their way.

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 22:37

I think that one's perception of any genre's popularity depended on where you lived at the time.
I'm open to correction here, but it seems the U.K. is more open to new trends, fads if you will. Part of that is supposed to be the fact that it's a small country, so that a band can get airplay on one station, and if successful , have it spread quickly; along with being able to tour everywhere very easily and seemingly be everywhere.
While here in North America, especially the States, you can do 30 cities, and still not have made a dent in the whole market. Add to that , the fact that radio stations still had some independance back then. SO bands could break out regionally , and if lucky build up to the national stage. Bob Seger was big in the Midwest for years, before the song Night Moves made him a star in the rest of the U.S. .
And you'd have bands like Canada's Moxy who could headline a thousand seat hall in Houston, with top 40 airplay, but couldn't get anything else outside of their home country.
Nowadays, you have strict formats tweaked by computer models, determined from a head office. Here in Canada, the U.S. conglomerates just need to add Canadian Content to meet regulatory requirements. But apart from that, you couldn't tell one station from another except for the local info.
So here's three cheers to the internet, internet radio, community & college stations, Satellite Radio.
They are slowly bringing about the irrelevance of commercial radio. No wait. That's already happened. Thumbs Up

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Posted: May 28 2009 at 23:37

debrewguy wrote:

DB - Of course, the arguement could be made that country is less popular than prog because Pink Floyd sold more records than Garth Brooks. That heavy metal is more popular than pop because Metallica has sold more than Backstreet Boys. Or that Reggae is more popular than R & B because Marley outsells Tina Turner.

Of course, we could also assign a biased assessment of what genre the Beatles or Elvis belong to, and extrapolate that that genre is the most popular one. But that wouldn't be too scientific, eh.

The only way to measure popularity is by sales, there's no other way, Pink Floyd was an exception to the general rule, they were popular among Prog and mainstream listeners, I wish all the bands would have done that, but despite I'm a fan of Genesis and see them in Nª 32 as best albums of 1973, they were one of the most unpopular bands, they had to live in Italy because British Progheads took their time to accept them.

Selling England by the Pound may be considered a good album in the list, but the numbers say something different

1974

Selling England By The Pound

Pop Albums

Chart information courtesy of Billboard.com

Their peak in one week was Nª 70 according to Billboard

BTW: Only reached Gold in 1990, this means 17 years after it's release

Organization	Level	Date
RIAA – U.S.	Gold	April 20, 1990

1973

Larks' Tongues In Aspic

Pop Albums

Chart information courtesy of Billboard.com

The peak of Lark's Tongues in Aspic one week was Nº 61 never reached gold, as a fact the only King Crimson album that reached gold is ITCOTCK.

1973

Pop Albums

193

Chart information courtesy of Billboard.com

For your pleasure is Nº 2 in that list, but reached 194 as their peak, never reached Gold

1973

Space Ritual/Alive In Liverpool And London

Pop Albums

179

Chart information courtesy of Billboard.com

Hawkwind peaked at 179 no Gold either

So this list tells us this albums were good for some people, I believe the were excellent, but they didn't sold well, and of course if you can sell 500,000 copies in USA, you are not popular..

Bands as Steely Dan, Beatles or Queen were not considered Prog in those days, for heavens sake Prog Archives doesn't consider some of them Prog, because we said Ad Nausean that Prog related is not Prog

DB - please feel free to ask the captain of the Titanic how reliable a measure the tip of an iceberg can be ...

DB - if you wish to show that prog only took up a certain space in the top 100, can you also be asked to identify the percentages that other genres occupied in these same charts ? SO instead of saying "prog is only 10%", and leaving the impression that the rest was one monolithic single all encompassing genre, why not tell us how many albums were considered to be Pop, Country, Glam, Hard Rock, R & B, Jazz, Reggae, and any other genre that was represented by at least one album. Would that give us a better view of the relative popularity or unpopularity of prog vs the others ?

Wea re talking about mainstream genres in conparison with Prog, because if we split Kraut, from Crossover, Symphonic and psyche, the percentages would be shorter, and i'm talking about billboard, which meassures the number of albums sold.

DB - did you notice that Hawkwind outsold Jackson Browne ? That Lee Perry outsold Sabbath ? Does it tell you that one album's sales do not represent a whole genre ?

Not outsold, for some people is a better album but Jackson Browne's "For Everyman" reached PLATINUUM (1'000,000 copies) and later albums reached even 7X Platinuum, no Hawkwind album reached Gold,

That means popularity, like it or not

DB - And the other 90% was made up of music from what genre(s) ? And how did prog stand compared to these other genre(s) ?

Again we are talking Prog compared with Mainstream, if not then we should split Prog genres

.
db - so some prog is prog, and some isn't depending on whether you say so. I would refer to the PA database. We can even limit ourselves to full prog genres, i.e. no prog related. So, I think there's 10 in the above 51 . Not bad for unpopularity ...Please feel free to follow up with a breakdown for the quantities assignable to other music genres. Then we can discuss if there really was one dominant type of music. Again, I would present the opinion that the top 50 represents the tip of the iceberg. That is, it tells us nothing about the majority of the albums sold that year, nor the amount of tickets bought for live shows.

Prog Related is not Prog, I don't say it, Prog Archives says it, but now look at the numbers above and bellow.

db - would you agree that the captain of the Titanic erred in basing his opinion on only being able to see the tip of the iceberg ?

Do you honestly believe Prog albums sell more than Rap?

db - so you would agree that some artists just need the proper case presented before they are accepted into PA's database ? After all, this process was not successful on the first try ....

If they have some relation yes, but IMO Dire Strait doesn't have a case.

Look at general numbers, search for the most selling albums in history

List of the world's best-selling albums

Over 100 million copies

Artist	Album	Released	Genre	Sales (millions)	Source
Michael Jackson	Thriller	1982	Pop / R&B	100–109	^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7]^[8]

40–49 million copies

Artist	Album	Released	Genre	Sales (millions)	Source
AC/DC	Back in Black	1980	Rock	45	^[9]
Pink Floyd	The Dark Side of the Moon	1973	Rock	45	^[10]
Meat Loaf	Bat out of Hell	1977	Rock	43	^[11]
Eagles	Their Greatest Hits (1971–1975)	1976	Rock	42	^[12]
Various artists	Dirty Dancing	1987	Dance / Pop	42	^[13]
Whitney Houston / Various artists	The Bodyguard	1992	Pop / R&B	42	^[14]
Andrew Lloyd Webber	The Phantom of the Opera	1986	Stage musical	40	^[15]
Backstreet Boys	Millennium	1999	Pop	40	^[16]^[17]
Bee Gees / Various artists	Saturday Night Fever	1977	Disco	40	^[18]
Fleetwood Mac	Rumours	1977	Rock	40	^[19]

31–39 million copies

Artist	Album	Released	Genre	Sales (millions)	Source
Shania Twain	Come on Over	1997	Country / Pop	39	^[18]
Led Zeppelin	Led Zeppelin IV	1971	Rock	37	^[20]
Alanis Morissette	Jagged Little Pill	1995	Rock	33	^[21]
The Beatles	Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band	1967	Rock	32	^[18]
Céline Dion	Falling into You	1996	Pop	32	^[18]
Mariah Carey	Music Box	1993	Pop / R&B	32	^[22]
Michael Jackson	Dangerous	1991	Pop / R&B	32	^[23]
The Beatles	1	2000	Rock	31	^[24]
Celine Dion	Let's Talk About Love	1997	Pop	31	^[18]

26–30 million copies

Artist	Album	Released	Genre	Sales (millions)	Source
Backstreet Boys	Backstreet Boys	1997	Pop	30	^[25]
The Beatles	Abbey Road	1969	Rock	30	^[18]
Bee Gees	Spirits Having Flown	1979	Disco / Pop	30	^[26]
Bruce Springsteen	Born in the U.S.A.	1984	Rock	30	^[27]
James Horner	Titanic	1997	Pop	30	^[28]
Dire Straits	Brothers in Arms	1985	Rock	30	^[29]
Michael Jackson	Bad	1987	Pop / R&B	30	^[30]
Various artists	Grease	1978	Pop	28	^[31]
Bon Jovi	Slippery When Wet	1986	Rock	28	^[32]
Guns N' Roses	Appetite for Destruction	1987	Rock	28	^[33]
ABBA	ABBA Gold: Greatest Hits	1992	Pop	26	^[34]
Hootie & The Blowfish	Cracked Rear View	1994	Rock	26	^[35]
Nirvana	Nevermind	1991	Grunge/Rock	26	^[36]

20–25 million copies

Artist	Album	Released	Genre	Sales (millions)	Source
Britney Spears	...Baby One More Time	1999	Pop	25	^[37]
Iron Butterfly	In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida	1968	Rock	25	^[38]
Mariah Carey	Daydream	1995	Pop / R&B	25	^[39]
Queen	Greatest Hits	1981	Rock	25	^[40]
Santana	Supernatural	1999	Rock	25	^[41]
Simon & Garfunkel	Bridge Over Troubled Water	1970	Folk	25	^[42]
U2	The Joshua Tree	1987	Rock	25	^[43]
Whitney Houston	Whitney Houston	1985	Pop / R&B	25	^[14]
Backstreet Boys	Black & Blue	2000	Pop	24	^[17]
Linkin Park	Hybrid Theory	2000	Rock	24	^[44]
Madonna	True Blue	1986	Pop	24	^[45]
Ace of Base	Happy Nation/The Sign	1994	Pop	23	^[46]
Spice Girls	Spice	1996	Pop	23	^[47]
Carole King	Tapestry	1971	Pop	22	^[48]^[49]
Madonna	The Immaculate Collection	1990	Pop / Dance	22	^[50]
Metallica	Metallica	1991	Metal	22	^[51]
Dido	No Angel	1999	Pop	21	^[52]
Madonna	Like a Virgin	1984	Pop / Dance	21	^[53]
Billy Ray Cyrus	Some Gave All	1992	Country	20	^[54]
Bob Marley & The Wailers	Legend: The Best of Bob Marley & The Wailers	1984	Reggae	20	^[55]^[55]
Britney Spears	Oops!... I Did It Again	2000	Pop	20	^[56]
Blondie	Parallel Lines	1978	Rock	20	^[57]
Céline Dion	The Colour of My Love	1993	Pop	20	^[58]
Cher	Believe	1999	Pop	20	^[59]
Def Leppard	Hysteria	1987	Rock	20	^[60]
George Michael	Faith	1987	Pop / R&B	20	^[61]
Janet Jackson	janet.	1993	Pop / R&B	20	^[62]
Lionel Richie	Can't Slow Down	1983	Pop / R&B	20	^[63]
Michael Jackson	HIStory: Past, Present and Future - Book I	1995	Pop / R&B	20	^[64]
Michael Jackson	Off the Wall	1979	Pop / R&B	20	^[65]
Norah Jones	Come Away With Me	2002	Jazz	20	^[66]
Prince & the Revolution	Purple Rain	1984	Rock	20	^[31]
Shakira	Laundry Service	2001	Pop Rock	20	^[67]
Spice Girls	Spiceworld	1997	Pop	20	^[68]
Tina Turner	Private Dancer	1984	Rock	20	^[69]
Usher	Confessions	2004	R&B	20	^[70]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide

Only two full Prog album from our database, including.a POP 1999 album by Santana, because you won't believe that Prog fanbase placed Beatles, Led Zeppelin or Queen (which are in Prog Related) in the top.

Those are the big numbers that define popularity.

Iván

BTW: Most of his albums are tagged as POP

BTW II: You know what is popularity? 100'000,000 telephone votes for American Idol

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 01:08

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Posted: May 29 2009 at 06:21

Chris S wrote:

^ not in a million years can I decipher the above posts

OK.......................took the time to read properly

Interesting Stats.

now if we could only get a breakdown of the percentage that other genres have ?
Unless there's only two genres - prog & something else.
I think I see some metal, some pop, some dance, some grunge , new wave, reggae, country,folk,hip hop, psychedelic, hard rock, hair metal, pop punk, Beatles, Zep , country rock, along with some prog. Mind you, many a genre can be "tagged" as pop. Which is short for popular music. Which , since the mid 60s has come to mean rock n roll, or rock music. Which also includes R & B, Dance, and soul.
Essentially, most of which , along with prog , are considered part of Rock music.
Not that this should detract from the arguement that prog does not represent the majority of best selling albums.
It does however, give pause as to why prog is any more unpopular than say , country rock ...

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: May 29 2009 at 06:35

Ivan, please specify your point.
Is it that 1) prog is not more popular than ALL the other genres combined ?
2) prog is not as popular as some other genre(s) ?
3) prog is completely unpopular, i.e. has enjoyed, or enjoys, no commercial success, no mainstream visibility, or little if any place in the music fan's tastes ?

because frankly, your case seems to be something like "Irish Roman Catholic Americans represent less than 10% of the population of the U.S. , therefore they are unpopular."
Which would ignore the fact that 1) Irish Americans are caucasians, therefore PART of a majority; 2) that not all Irish Americans are Catholics; 3) that Roman Catholics are one of the largest religious groups in America, meaning they are a very big minority grouping ; 4) that Catholics are part of Christianity, and thus are PART of the largest, by far, religion in the U.S.; 5) that the Irish immigrants & their descendants represent an important part of the social fabric of America even though they do not outnumber ALL other immigrant populations and their descendants in the U.S. historical melting pot.

SO THAT IT WOULD BE A STRETCH TO SAY IRISH AMERICANS ARE UNPOPULAR EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT A MAJORITY OF THE U.S. POPULATION.

So, just what do you mean by "unpopular", Ivan ?

Edited by debrewguy - May 29 2009 at 06:39

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Posted: May 29 2009 at 07:15

debrewguy said "I'm sorry but your personal experience does not jive with subjective reality as lived by others".

I'm not even sure I know what that means. My post was not based on my personal experience. It was based on what was selling at the time in one of the biggest music markets in the country. The L.A. music market was used as a gauge by both labels AND bands. The L.A. area had more large venues for major concerts (auditoriums, civic centers, stadiums, arenas) than any other city in the western United States. Can you imagine a major band doing a U.S. tour and deciding to skip L.A.?

Concerts were not put on just so a band could get all warm and fuzzy with their fans. Concerts were put on to SELL ALBUMS AND TAPES (yes, cassettes were big at that time). Record labels did not have swap meets in their parking lots. Record labels only sold their product through retail stores.

The handful of bands that get constantly thrown around on this site (Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP, Jethro Tull) sold themselves. We didn't have to promote them, we just had to keep enough of them on the shelf to keep up with demand.

Let's face it, even Helen Keller knew which band recorded Dark Side Of The Moon.

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Posted: May 29 2009 at 10:40

debrewguy wrote:

Ivan, please specify your point.
Is it that 1) prog is not more popular than ALL the other genres combined ?
2) prog is not as popular as some other genre(s) ?
3) prog is completely unpopular, i.e. has enjoyed, or enjoys, no commercial success, no mainstream visibility, or little if any place in the music fan's tastes ?

In first place, a definition:

pop·u·lar

Pronunciation:

\ˈpä-pyə-lər\

Function:

adjective

Etymology:

Latin popularis, from populus the people, a people

Date:

1548

1: of or relating to the general public: suitable to the majority: as

a: adapted to or indicative of the understanding and taste of the majority <

a popular history of the war>

b: suited to the means of the majority

: inexpensive <sold at popular prices>

Definitions talk

Prog is not a commercial genre, in comparison with POP, Rap, Hip Hop and Disco in it's day

Sells less
Has less access to the radios
Is ignored and/or criticized by the best known magazines
Ergo, is less popular than all if them.

I don't know about Reggae or Country Rock (More a local phenomenom) but compared with the mos selling genres is uless popular.

debrewguy wrote:

because frankly, your case seems to be something like "Irish Roman Catholic Americans represent less than 10% of the population of the U.S. , therefore they are unpopular.

Please Claude, you know that's a "reductio ad absurdum", you don't judge PEOPLE'S popularity by it's number, because you don't sell people.

SADLY the essential finality of an album is to sell copies, how well you do selling albums defines your popularity.

debrewguy wrote:

Which would ignore the fact that 1) Irish Americans are caucasians, therefore PART of a majority; 2) that not all Irish Americans are Catholics; 3) that Roman Catholics are one of the largest religious groups in America, meaning they are a very big minority grouping ; 4) that Catholics are part of Christianity, and thus are PART of the largest, by far, religion in the U.S.; 5) that the Irish immigrants & their descendants represent an important part of the social fabric of America even though they do not outnumber ALL other immigrant populations and their descendants in the U.S. historical melting pot. .

Absurd again, you don't judge people by it's number, because you are not selling them or judging their fertility rate.

debrewguy wrote:

SO THAT IT WOULD BE A STRETCH TO SAY IRISH AMERICANS ARE UNPOPULAR EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT A MAJORITY OF THE U.S. POPULATION. .

Absurd again, you don't judge people by it's number because you are not selling them or judging their fertility rate.

Just one question...How in hell you want to measure the popularity of a band, if you don't count how many albums they sell???

We all wish music was excluseively for art, but the labels are there for the money and artists have to eat and progresss.

How do you judge the popularity of a candidate, if you don't count the votes he gets?

Hopw diod you judged McCain's popularity (as a candidate) if not counting his votes and comparing them with Obamma's? Or won't you say that Obbama is a more popular candidate than McCain? Not talking as person's, just as candidates, Mc'Cain may be the niicest person, but as a candidate, the guiy is not remotely as popular as the one who won.

I'm not saying that Prog is unpopular, I'm saying that it's less popular than other genres.

BTW: POP is not a short term for popular, is considered a genre with it's own characterics

debrewguy wrote:

So, just what do you mean by "unpopular", Ivan ?

Didn't said unpopular (and if I did was a bad choice of words) I say t's less popular, and popularity is judged by how many albums you sell.

If a band sells 100 millions of copies that album and another band sells 175 copies you can say with confidence that the first one is more popular.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 10:45

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Posted: May 29 2009 at 11:14

Answer to Slartibartfast:

The critic's name is Ken Barnes on that quoted Relayer Rolling Stone review I posted.

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Posted: May 29 2009 at 11:31

Bitterblogger wrote:

Answer to Slartibartfast:

The critic's name is Ken Barnes on that quoted Relayer Rolling Stone review I posted.

Thank you. I can now track him down and kick his pretentious ass. LOL

Edited by Slartibartfast - May 29 2009 at 11:42

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: May 29 2009 at 11:46

debrewguy wrote:

So prog was unpopular except for 3 major big name acts ?

You are an expert in the "reductio ad absurdum" and taking things out of context.

Lived almost two years there, and saw like 20 concerts including Fleetwood Mac, Barry White, Elton John, etc and only a couple of Prog acts, including Yes, Kansas two times (couldn't go the second), STYX, several times.

I also expent all my money in albums, and had to suffer a lot to get good Prog material, while the stores were full of top 40 stuff.

Also drived a car and listened radio,. only one or two stations ever played some Prog mixed with classic Rock, and most of it was "Come Sail Away", Dust in the Wind (Both played ad nauseam), plus some songs from "News from the World" and some tracks like Roundabout, Lucky Man, etc.

That's my experience, so I say it, don't imply anything, I only say what I lived there.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 11:47