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Direct Link To This Post Topic: J.S. Bach
    Posted: November 18 2009 at 20:24
Right now I'm learning Suite #1 for Bass.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2009 at 00:29
His Cello Suites are probably my favorite work of his. Yo-Yo Ma's performance of them is amazing unsurprisingly.

The first is my personal favorite. Which is nice given it's being used in some credit card commercial I think.

I'll have to listen to it now actually.

EDIT: Henry what are you listening to that makes you hear Bach as cold and emotionless?


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - November 16 2009 at 00:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2009 at 14:07
My favourite work by Bach is St Matthew Passion.

I am pleasantly surprised by how many progressive music lovers are also huge Bach fans, in some cases (like me) he is the main if not the only classical composer shown in their last.fm statistics.

It's particularly interesting given that Bach was not considered progressive enough when he was composing.

I find a lot of his music moving to the point of being a religious experience. I am sure others know precisely what I mean.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2009 at 11:29
You should hear his music played on a Gottfried Silbermann organ - even Mozart acknowledged that this dude had an impressive organ, oh wait... I meant...

Just listen!


It's really worth browsing the various samples here, as all Silbermann's organs had distinct characters, and amazingly varied sounds. 

Silbermann built organs that Bach would have played - if I remember correctly, they actually worked together to develop the instruments at one point, although that could have been someone else... a quick  Google turned this up http://www.baroquemusic.org/silbeng.html - but I don't have time to re-research this area!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2009 at 09:53
My favourite Bach is anything that contains string instruments. Except the vocal works - I keep putting off listening to them for a special occasion when the time is right and I don't have much to do (Easter's a natural choice) and I simply never get round to it, mainly because I end up having much to do anyway or simply forget Dead

I don't think even Bach's genius can ever redeem the church organ in my ears. Too many years of hearing people mistreat it every Sunday, bleh. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2009 at 05:14
Originally posted by meptune meptune wrote:

Any notion that Bach's music is mechanical and dispassionate probably arises from a lack of familiarity with the body of his work and a lack of understanding of the prevailing concepts of his time. Indeed, Bach's is some of the most passionate work in music history. The Toccata and Fugue in D minor was deliberately written to put the fear of God in the hearts of the congregation, the cantatas were meant to convey the majesty of God, and so many of the chorals express the pathos of the suffering of Christ. I think the notion of a "mechanical" quality comes from two aspects of the music. One is that there is a strictness inherent in imitative polyphony and, indeed almost all aspects of Baroque part writing. I think this is indicative of an overal fascination with the notion that the universe is structured and ordered, a concept pervasive in all Baroque art. Bach tried to make his music convey that structure and order. To the Baroque mind order=God, disorder=well, the other guy. I don't think structured necessarily means mechanical. The second aspect that I think may seem mechanical is the fact that the piano had not been invented. The piano allows the musician to play at different volume levels. Bach's keyboard works were really written for harpsichord and pipe organ so the dynamic ranges are limited. In fact, many of Bach's keyboard compositions have no dynamic markings. If you can get around these two aspects I think you'll find that it isn't mechanical at all.



The third aspect is simply that many performers play Bach mechanically, possibly out of some kind of reverence for the dots on the page - as if the only true interpretation is what's written down - which, as we established earlier in this thread, is far from the truth. 

There are, however, plenty of performers who realise the fluidity and soul in his music without getting overly Romantic about it  - and when you hear it performed "properly", you really know about it - without wishing to wax too lyrically, it can touch your soul in a way you never imagined music could. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 21:58
Originally posted by meptune meptune wrote:

Any notion that Bach's music is mechanical and dispassionate probably arises from a lack of familiarity with the body of his work and a lack of understanding of the prevailing concepts of his time. Indeed, Bach's is some of the most passionate work in music history. The Toccata and Fugue in D minor was deliberately written to put the fear of God in the hearts of the congregation, the cantatas were meant to convey the majesty of God, and so many of the chorals express the pathos of the suffering of Christ. I think the notion of a "mechanical" quality comes from two aspects of the music. One is that there is a strictness inherent in imitative polyphony and, indeed almost all aspects of Baroque part writing. I think this is indicative of an overal fascination with the notion that the universe is structured and ordered, a concept pervasive in all Baroque art. Bach tried to make his music convey that structure and order. To the Baroque mind order=God, disorder=well, the other guy. I don't think structured necessarily means mechanical. The second aspect that I think may seem mechanical is the fact that the piano had not been invented. The piano allows the musician to play at different volume levels. Bach's keyboard works were really written for harpsichord and pipe organ so the dynamic ranges are limited. In fact, many of Bach's keyboard compositions have no dynamic markings. If you can get around these two aspects I think you'll find that it isn't mechanical at all.

This is very true. We tend to forget these days that the original name of the piano was "pianoforte", which means nothing but quietloud. It was named this way because of its dynamic characteristics.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 19:24

Any notion that Bach's music is mechanical and dispassionate probably arises from a lack of familiarity with the body of his work and a lack of understanding of the prevailing concepts of his time. Indeed, Bach's is some of the most passionate work in music history. The Toccata and Fugue in D minor was deliberately written to put the fear of God in the hearts of the congregation, the cantatas were meant to convey the majesty of God, and so many of the chorals express the pathos of the suffering of Christ. I think the notion of a "mechanical" quality comes from two aspects of the music. One is that there is a strictness inherent in imitative polyphony and, indeed almost all aspects of Baroque part writing. I think this is indicative of an overal fascination with the notion that the universe is structured and ordered, a concept pervasive in all Baroque art. Bach tried to make his music convey that structure and order. To the Baroque mind order=God, disorder=well, the other guy. I don't think structured necessarily means mechanical. The second aspect that I think may seem mechanical is the fact that the piano had not been invented. The piano allows the musician to play at different volume levels. Bach's keyboard works were really written for harpsichord and pipe organ so the dynamic ranges are limited. In fact, many of Bach's keyboard compositions have no dynamic markings. If you can get around these two aspects I think you'll find that it isn't mechanical at all.

Regarding P.D.Q. Bach (i.e. Peter Schickle), he's a must hear for anyone who wants a good laugh at classical music. One of my favorites is his "Grossest Fugue", a spoof on Beethoven's "Grosse Fugue". I also love his little madrigal "My Bonnie Lass, She Smelleth"



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 19:13
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Bach has never done much for me either, even with Glenn Gould. I can appreciate the complexity of the patterns, but with a few exceptions I don't get any emotion. It's the same with Mozart a lot of the time, and when he does write something I find deeply emotional, he tends to pound the theme into the ground.

Did you ever listen to one of Mozart's operas? Not only can you hardly get any more emotional than these, the character portrayal through the music alone in them is unsurpassed, especially in "Don Giovanni".
The problem with the music of Mozart is that many ensembles play his music too "neat", and I totally agree that the emotion gets lost then. Never listen to the Wiener Philhamoniker playing Mozart; they may be one of the best orchestras in the world, but they add too much sugar to his music.


Edited by BaldFriede - June 18 2009 at 19:19


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 18:56
Bach has never done much for me either, even with Glenn Gould. I can appreciate the complexity of the patterns, but with a few exceptions I don't get any emotion. It's the same with Mozart a lot of the time, and when he does write something I find deeply emotional, he tends to pound the theme into the ground.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 17:56
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
For the record I thought that W. Carlos stunk ... I guess after all these years of listening to music, I will have to check out Keith Jarrett doing Bach ... maybe I did miss something! I actually thought that Kubrick's handling of it was kinda funny ..  he was doing a 2 for one ... and while I rarely associate music with any specific human act, the one thing I got out of it is how ... some people mis-use music ... but this is similar if you ever see Isaac Stern goes to China ... a fabulous film ... and some young japanese girl calls Mozart's music ... "very industrial" ... which you and I would probably sneer at ... but you know what? There is a bit of that in it ... even though I don't like the term and it comes across as anti-western'ism.
 
I don't dislike Bach ... but obviously the humor went right over .... like an airplane that landed upside down ... poor Syd ... he would not survive too long in this board! You might want to see the film "Tous Les Matins Du Monde" ... just after Bach ... in the music history department.
 
But you need to hear PDQ Bach ... and if you haven't ... the shame! the Shame!
 
 

Listen to Glenn Gould playing Bach; I bet my head you will repent on your knees that you called him "mechanical".


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 15:57
Add Loussier to Jarrett (in fact above him) in the jazz-interpreting of Bach section.

I didn't imply you don't like Bach (well, from your first post it's obvious you don't) or that you have to, I just said your description of his music was awkward. The feeling that he's repetitive is just an illusion of the bit more strict forms that are at the base of the genres.

(PDQ noted)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:58
Hi,
 
For the record I thought that W. Carlos stunk ... I guess after all these years of listening to music, I will have to check out Keith Jarrett doing Bach ... maybe I did miss something! I actually thought that Kubrick's handling of it was kinda funny ..  he was doing a 2 for one ... and while I rarely associate music with any specific human act, the one thing I got out of it is how ... some people mis-use music ... but this is similar if you ever see Isaac Stern goes to China ... a fabulous film ... and some young japanese girl calls Mozart's music ... "very industrial" ... which you and I would probably sneer at ... but you know what? There is a bit of that in it ... even though I don't like the term and it comes across as anti-western'ism.
 
I don't dislike Bach ... but obviously the humor went right over .... like an airplane that landed upside down ... poor Syd ... he would not survive too long in this board! You might want to see the film "Tous Les Matins Du Monde" ... just after Bach ... in the music history department.
 
But you need to hear PDQ Bach ... and if you haven't ... the shame! the Shame!
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:35
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
Actually I look at Bach as the pre-cursor to the modern computerized music ... that is mechanical and rep[etitive at times ... sometimes it lacks feeling and that may be because of all the math that goes behind making all that code!
 
It's his fault that the computerized and digital stuff is not as good as the analogue ... for a few more years!
 
And of course ... the most famous adage of all ... not too many notes!


You've been listening to another Bach. The J.S.Bach history knows doesn't fall into anything you've described above.

Or maybe you're attention has been drawn too much by Carlos Wendy, who indeed transposed Bach's music in a totally tasteless, mechanical electronic way.

Bach's music isn't "computerized", it's not repetitive, he's in fact rejected some genres like the variations (which thematically repeat an initial melody), because they limited his compositional fantasy.






Edited by Ricochet - June 18 2009 at 14:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:35
I honestly don't think I've ever though "Too many notes" in relation to Bach.
 
The power of the music is certainly more subtle than Beethoven. Mechanical....hmmm.....maybe you're listening to something different than I am.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 mechanical and repetitive at times


Bach's music is only those two things if the player sucks balls. Bach is a lot of things, but it sure as hell ain't repetitive OR mechanical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:04
Hi,
 
Actually I look at Bach as the pre-cursor to the modern computerized music ... that is mechanical and rep[etitive at times ... sometimes it lacks feeling and that may be because of all the math that goes behind making all that code!
 
It's his fault that the computerized and digital stuff is not as good as the analogue ... for a few more years!
 
And of course ... the most famous adage of all ... not too many notes!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:01
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
NEVER ...
I only listen to his relation PDQ Bach ...


What?
 
Best prog classics ever done and you have never heard it?
 
NP: Seasonings 1/2 tsp Oratorio
 
Well ... you will never know now, will you ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:57
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
NEVER ...
 
I only listen to his relation PDQ Bach ...


What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:47
You guys make me want to study....for a moment.
 
I'm not trained enough to tell canon from fugue but I do understand what counterpoint is and multiple interweaving lines (about the best I can do to describe what I like) is a major turnon when listening to music.
 
Hey baby, you like counterpoint?
 
Do I ever.
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