Did Classical Music influence Prog?

 

I believe we are talking about INFLUENCE, not about an absolute rule, we talk about Progressive Rock as a GENRE, not as individual bands.

Nobody denies that Rock was influenced by Blues, despite not every band in Rock has a Blues based Rock structure.

In the same way, the first generation of pure Prog bands was influenced by Classical Music (Understood as Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern, etc).

It's also a fact that the 6 most transcendental bands in Prog history (Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, ELP and Jethro Tull) and pioneers of the genre, have Classical influence in higher or lesser degree, and that most bands have something of at least one of this bands.

So the Classical influence IN THE GENRE is beyond any doubt.

 

By your interpretation you are 100% correct. By using vague generalisations Prog can be said to have been influenced by just about anything, as your Blues example so aptly demonstrates (though Progressive Blues is still a bit of a no-go area as far as Progressive Rock is concerned).

 

However, I do not believe that such a generalisation is in the spirit of the OT, which infers a more direct, one-degree of separation, connection between Prog and Classical Music, and was qualified by distinct examples by individual bands and not as a catch-all of the entire genre. I also think that the six pages of discussions that followed tend to support my interpretation, even if they have been sidetracked by the discussion of qualifications and musical training which I maintain has little or no bearing on the music that musicians create and cannot be used as an indication of musical influence.

 

And I disagree with this idea that classical music was such a primary influence, even in the Big-6. Any influence of classical music on Prog has been in the most part secondary or even tertiary.

 

The problem I have is that the if influence of the Classical Period had been so great and so direct, then it would show in more rigid and more easily identifiable structures within the compositions such as those found in the sonata form (or even as sonatas themselves) and other strict classical forms - Prog is more free-form than that - to me it shows an unstructured, "make it up as we go", approach that typifies the free-form jams that preceded it in Psyche Rock but as improvised composition rather than improvised playing. Also the classically inspired ornamentation that was present in Baroque Pop of the 60s (Procol Harum, Moody Blues etc) carries on into the Prog era, embellishing the music with pastiches of classical motifs, many simply lifted wholesale from popular classical pieces without the accompanying development of that motif throughout the piece. In retrospect the end result may appear to look structured and therefore influenced by classical techniques, it rarely follows classical "rules". Just because it sounds Classical doesn't mean it is Classical in derivation.

 

You are undeniably correct in this.

 

Classical music is what it is because of it's form, which virtually none of the prog bands used or currently use.

 

I think most people assume that classical music is what it is because it sounds like an orchestra, but that was purely coincedental, as they were the only musical instruments around at the time. Most prog bands do not use any form at all. In fact the only modern music where composers write within a strict form is probably pop music, albeit a simple form (i.e. intro, verse, chorus, mid8, verse chorus, chorus, coda).

 

I think the debate goes on because many people here think of "classical influence" as having some similarity in the sound, melody and counterpoint that they hear in classical music played by an orchestra.

But the fact is, you could take 200 guitar players and have them play all the parts of a Haydn, Beethoven, Mozart work, and it would still be the Sonata, Symphony or Concerto that it always was because of it's form, but it would definately not sound the same, of course.

 

In contrast, if you had an orchestra play Supper's Ready, it might sound interesting, but there would be nothing classical about it.

 

However, there are a small amount of prog bands that have use a condensed Sonata form, where the 4 movements are combined into 1 piece, and almost follow the required developement for each movement, but it's most uncommon and probably unnoticed.

 

It also bugs me a bit when prog bands are called Symphonic rock, when there is no reference to the Symphonic form in their music at all.

 

Keith

 

Yes, you're right about the situation now, of course, but you didn't say currently, you said ;

 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: It's also a fact that the 6 most transcendental bands in Prog history (Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, ELP and Jethro Tull) and pioneers of the genre, have Classical influence in higher or lesser degree, and that most bands have something of at least one of this bands.

 

So I took you at your word that you were talking about the "Pioneers" of Prog. I understood that to be a different issue.

 

You're right, I can't change what they write either.

 

Keith

 

 

 

If there are any, it is only in a compositional sense ... most of the stuff they do tends to start with a theme and end with the same theme ... and that tends to be called something like ... a sonata ... in most classical music ... in fact ... isn't that the single biggest thing about the majority of the music mentioned here?

 

It's been done ... Robert Schroeder's first album was originally released on Klaus Schulze's label and could be played at 33RPM and 45PM ...  the funny thing is that it sounded WAYYYYYYYYYY better in the slower form, and much heavier and moodier, than if you ran it at 45 RPM which was the designed speed it was recorded for apparently.

 

Amon Duul 2 backwards is a treat and a half ... most music that is syncopated and timed is not as good at fooling around like this, so music that is freer in form, will always sound way better.

 

You should really listen to the early experimentations of Ralf and Florian, and Roedelius and Rother and Faust ... some of that sound effect and strage stuff seems awfully silly and simple now, and it was simple then, but the sound spheres that they created were nifty and a lot of fun to listen to ...

 

But the master of backwards'ness was in the radio show Space Pirate Radio ... no one assaulted and had more fun with music and effects than Guy Guden! You should have heard some of those dandies ... and I can tell you that Tangerine Dream backwards is insane ... as is so much other stuff ... but you can't do that today ... the CD technology stinks by comparison to the freedom and fun that a turntable gave us ...