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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 10:33
Originally posted by XunknownX XunknownX wrote:

No, it's better to review albums you like, reviews about albums you dislike serves no one but the author him/herself.
 

Sorry, I don't agree with this statement.

If only people who like an album would review it, we would have 24,096 releases with 5 stars,. and Prog Archives would we worth nothing.

Progarchives must tell people which albums are recommended by the reviewers and which (also in opinion of the reviewers), should be avoided, but if only people who like albums review them, any newbie or visitor would believe PA is another fanboy club where everything is perfect.

I would had thanked a review that told me that OVO was not really a Gabriel album, I bought it based in the name of Peter and hated it, I live in Perú, each CD's costs an average of US$ 26.00, and not being rich, I can't afford the luxury to buy an album that I won't like.

Since then I read the reviews, balanced the positive and negative ones, weight the confidence I have in determined reviewers as well as the taste of them (As I said Gatot has similar tastes with me while Mike is a Metal encyclopaedia but I don't like most metal), and only then I decide to get an album or not.

So I value the positive and negative reviews equally.

Iván
 
 
            
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 10:42
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Iván Iván wrote:


 
Of course that implies to know the reviewer, for example if Mike tells me a Tech. Extreme Metal album is worth 5 stars, I won't buy it anyway, because I know Mike loves Metal but I don't, he probably will dislike albums I love.
 
But if Gatot or Cerif1ed tell me "I loved X album", and explain their arguments, then I trust them, because I share the love for most of what they like.



You always claim that you need the reviews and ratings are worthless ... but hand on heart, isn't it sufficient to see a high rating by a member whom you know to have a matching taste? A 2 star rating by Gatot would surely keep you away from an album without you having to read the review ...
 
Noi it isn't Mike, because I don't know why the author likes or dislikes an album.
 
For example, if I read a rating alone about Sheherezade and other Stories with 2 stars by a reviewer I trust  (This is only fiction), I would probably avoid it, and loose one of the best albums ever.
 
But if I read that rating with a review by the same author that says "Excellent music, absolutely Symphonic, but I don't like female vocals in Prog" (Not fiction, I read this comment twice), I would ignore the rating and buy the album, becaise I like Symphonic music with female vocals.
 
Maybe another person says that Opeth is worth 5 stars, without a review means nothing for me, but if that same person writes "Great album, excellent music and the growling is awesome"...Then I know I shouldn't buy the album because I hate gowling.
 
So for me, ratings without reviews mean almost nothing.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 15 2009 at 10:44
            
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Points: 2506 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 11:44
Originally posted by progrules progrules wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by progrules progrules wrote:

Originally posted by kingfriso kingfriso wrote:

Some people just don't like some bands, but is it justified to rate a record low because it isn't your style or your kind of music or you don't know what to do with it? Opinions?

 

In this respect: what do you think of my Pawn Hearts review ? I hesitated for quite some time to post it because of the one star rating, NOT because of the review. In my own perspective I think it's fair I posted it in the end because I explained why I didn't like it with valid arguments. And I also (or even mainly) did the review because I feel a controversial album like Pawn Hearts should also get some negative comments because it's not really an album for everyone, is it ?


 
Right. And that's exactly what makes an album controversial. You treated Larks' Tongues in Aspic in a similar way, probably for similar reasons.

 

Clap Exact same story indeed !


Interesting discussion. I think everyone should be able to rate an album one or two stars if they realy hate it. The anti-fanboy however, is someone who rates a complete discography of a band he doesn't like. That's a big difference.

And besides, Pawn Hearts and Lark's Tongues are both very controversial. I've listened to the latter five times now, but I still don't know weather it's a two star of a five star album for me .
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 12:04
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by XunknownX XunknownX wrote:

No, it's better to review albums you like, reviews about albums you dislike serves no one but the author him/herself.
 

Sorry, I don't agree with this statement.

If only people who like an album would review it, we would have 24,096 releases with 5 stars,. and Prog Archives would we worth nothing.

Progarchives must tell people which albums are recommended by the reviewers and which (also in opinion of the reviewers), should be avoided, but if only people who like albums review them, any newbie or visitor would believe PA is another fanboy club where everything is perfect.

I would had thanked a review that told me that OVO was not really a Gabriel album, I bought it based in the name of Peter and hated it, I live in Perú, each CD's costs an average of US$ 26.00, and not being rich, I can't afford the luxury to buy an album that I won't like.

Since then I read the reviews, balanced the positive and negative ones, weight the confidence I have in determined reviewers as well as the taste of them (As I said Gatot has similar tastes with me while Mike is a Metal encyclopaedia but I don't like most metal), and only then I decide to get an album or not.

So I value the positive and negative reviews equally.

Iván
 
 


I agree 100% with Ivan's point of view, and would like to add something else. It is everyone's right to review whatever they want, especially since this site allows it - and that includes albums we don't like, those from bands we love that have disappointed us (see my two Deep Purple examples), and everything in between.  However, bashing an album we dislike is easy - what is far more difficult is to write a basically negative review that does non indulge in mindless bashing (both of the music and of the band/artist), but tries to explain to the reader what may be wrong with the album without using demeaning language. I don't really like it when people write 'avoid this album' at the end of a review, as if one's personal taste was a kind of universal measurement of something's worth.


Edited by Raff - September 15 2009 at 12:05
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 12:39
I don't have any problems with negative reviews as long as

1. The writer backs it up with an explanation rather than just bashing/trashing it.
2. They aren't going negative just because the album doesn't suit their particular taste.
3. You aren't knocking an album I really really like. LOL

Of course mindlessly positive reviews are as equally pointless.

I also find ratings without a review pointless so I don't pay attention to the ratings anyway.  I consider them only of value for amusement purposes.  I do put the highest value on being able to try before I buy and making up my own mind.  We all have different tastes and that's the best way to know if you should bother.
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 13:47
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:


I agree 100% with Ivan's point of view, and would like to add something else. It is everyone's right to review whatever they want, especially since this site allows it - and that includes albums we don't like, those from bands we love that have disappointed us (see my two Deep Purple examples), and everything in between.  However, bashing an album we dislike is easy - what is far more difficult is to write a basically negative review that does non indulge in mindless bashing (both of the music and of the band/artist), but tries to explain to the reader what may be wrong with the album without using demeaning language. I don't really like it when people write 'avoid this album' at the end of a review, as if one's personal taste was a kind of universal measurement of something's worth.
 

Right Raff, is the site presents a variety of options that go from 1 to 5 stars, we are supposed to use them all when an album deserves them, if not M@X would had created only three options (Good, Better and Excellent), and most of us wouldn't be here.

Despite being a Genesis fan, I left their forums, because if you didn't said that all the albums are excellent, there's not a bad instant ad that Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit? where masterpieces,. you received negative feedback.

On the other hand when a newbie said that Invisible Touch was as good as A Trick of the Tail or Foxtrot, because Rutherford was as good guitarist as Steve Hackett he was applauded.

I replied that Rutherford was a bassist who also played guitar,but never in the level of a virtuosos like Steve and was almost condemned to ostracism, so I decided to leave.

If I can't say what I think, then I don't belong there, and here in Prog Archives, our opinions (positive or negative) are welcomed.

Iván
            
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 14:51
Just to prove how pointless a rating considered as a separate entity can be, I'll bring the example of another prog website, whose name will remain unsaidWink. I often check their reviews of albums that I have got to review myself, and I saw they had given more or less the same rating (6.5 and 7) to two different albums. The thing is, the review of the former album stated that it was 'insufficient', while that of the latter said it was 'excellent'. Now, I can't really believe that half a point is all it takes to turn a mediocre album into a very good one... Without those odd ratings, the reviews would have made much more sense.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:04
^ Different people use different rating scales ... and even in reviews people use adjectives like "good", "great" or "average" with different meanings. One person might call an album "good" and it's a recommendation, while another person might use the word "good" as a euphemism for "nice try, but not quite".

I'll reiterate my point: Ratings, reviews, tags ... whether they mean something to you depends mostly on whether you know the person who submitted them. And, by extension, the more ratings are submitted for any item, the more likely will the resulting average be useful, since the different strategies that people use will "even out".
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:25
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ Different people use different rating scales ... and even in reviews people use adjectives like "good", "great" or "average" with different meanings. One person might call an album "good" and it's a recommendation, while another person might use the word "good" as a euphemism for "nice try, but not quite".

I'll reiterate my point: Ratings, reviews, tags ... whether they mean something to you depends mostly on whether you know the person who submitted them. And, by extension, the more ratings are submitted for any item, the more likely will the resulting average be useful, since the different strategies that people use will "even out".


That is true, but review sites do not always have a faithful readership. Internet surfing is not always about visiting the same site over and over again (though it may be for the likes of us), but often about visiting sites occasionally just in order to find a particular piece of information. Personally, though I visit a couple of review sites quite regularly, I have not really had the opportunity to get acquainted with the different reviewers and their individual styles - among other factors, those sites don't work like PA, where each and every reviewer has a personal page.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:38
^ I think that it's absolutely vital that for each reviewer there's a page that shows all their ratings or at least some statistics about them. Have a look at my rating distribution at PF:



Now, it doesn't tell you everything, but it's a start.

Of course the best way to find out if you might trust another reviewer is to go through his list of ratings and find out if his ratings for albums that you know match - within some reasonable range - the ratings that you would submit for those ratings. This is what I have implemented at PF on the recommendations page. If you like you can give it a try ... rate some popular albums and then see which other users were most "compatible", and which albums the system recommends to you based on that.Smile


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 15 2009 at 15:47
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Points: 2506 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:44
Ratings for a certain album can be different on other sites. Allmusic rates Gong's You 3/5, on PA it is listed as 4.3/5. Gentle Giant's Power and the Glory gets 2/5 on allmusic and 4.2/5 on PA. I just depends on who makes te reviews. The good think about PA is that there are a lot of ratings that make the final resulting rating.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:49
^ generally I agree that the more ratings the better, but you can also get interesting content with few users as long as they're knowledgeable. Personally, I'll prefer a small group of experts over a large crowd of anonymous voters.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 16:32
By the way, my knock at ratings was not directed at you personally Mr. ProgFreak.  I think you devised a pretty decent scale.  And for those that prefer to do ratings and not reviews there's probably no better place to be when it comes to prog. Big smile
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 16:38
^ thanks, but I know that there will never be a scale (a mapping between ratings and adjectives like "average", "good", "great" etc.) that *everyone* is happy with.Embarrassed

BTW: Even people who usually prefer reviews could enjoy a ratings-centric website from time to time ... Big smile


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 15 2009 at 16:40
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Points: 282 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2009 at 21:25
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2009 at 05:42
Although I haven't done a review and don't consider myself that qualified to do itCry, I believe (IMHO) a good review should be a balance between personal taste and objective appreciation of the album quality. In fact objective appreciation should probably be the most important factor, because a review is made for others to read and it's probably easy to recognize quality even if it's not your cup of tea...
But if one is reading reviews to decide on getting an album or not, I would say the best review would be to listen to it if you can (easier today with the InternetClap). Or at least to follow a reviewer you trust...


Cheers,
Paulo
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2009 at 06:43
Originally posted by pmendes pmendes wrote:

Although I haven't done a review and don't consider myself that qualified to do itCry, I believe (IMHO) a good review should be a balance between personal taste and objective appreciation of the album quality. In fact objective appreciation should probably be the most important factor, because a review is made for others to read and it's probably easy to recognize quality even if it's not your cup of tea...
But if one is reading reviews to decide on getting an album or not, I would say the best review would be to listen to it if you can (easier today with the InternetClap). Or at least to follow a reviewer you trust...


Cheers,
Paulo


Such words of wisdom deserve a clappieClap, and a very warm welcome to PA! This is exactly how I see the 'art' of reviewing. However, I believe you are being too modest (though I believe humility is a very good thing) - most of the people who review albums, including the so-called 'professionals', are not exactly 'qualified', if not by being music lovers. I know I am not - I do like to write, and I write reasonably well, but I am not a musician, and my approach to music is impressionistic rather than technical. So, I think you should give it a try - you might become one of the best reviewers aroundSmile!
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2009 at 11:26
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by pmendes pmendes wrote:

Although I haven't done a review and don't consider myself that qualified to do itCry, I believe (IMHO) a good review should be a balance between personal taste and objective appreciation of the album quality. In fact objective appreciation should probably be the most important factor, because a review is made for others to read and it's probably easy to recognize quality even if it's not your cup of tea...
But if one is reading reviews to decide on getting an album or not, I would say the best review would be to listen to it if you can (easier today with the InternetClap). Or at least to follow a reviewer you trust...


Cheers,
Paulo


Such words of wisdom deserve a clappieClap, and a very warm welcome to PA! This is exactly how I see the 'art' of reviewing. However, I believe you are being too modest (though I believe humility is a very good thing) - most of the people who review albums, including the so-called 'professionals', are not exactly 'qualified', if not by being music lovers. I know I am not - I do like to write, and I write reasonably well, but I am not a musician, and my approach to music is impressionistic rather than technical. So, I think you should give it a try - you might become one of the best reviewers aroundSmile!



Hi, thanks very much, I shall give it a thoughtWink!

Regards,
Paulo
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Points: 3968 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2009 at 13:06

Unfortunately, there are no rules of that review should be 500+ words (the more, the better I think, but when there's nothing to say, should I say less, or not say anything at all ?), or obey law that you write a review to help others, not for yourself (but even this can't be enforced).

Paulo has unique skill. He made all these posts in this thread to few lines. Of course, I think that it's your opinion, not taken from others, but it looks nice and ironically, to have this in one short post. This is exception, sometimes a lot of words can be worse, so less is more saying goes a long way.

Raff, my clappie is frozen before he can clapped. He doesn't move. Of course, this can be caused by animated objects turned off, but what if he's not supposed, or even not allowed to clap ? What in this case ? ;-)


To summarize these words in my way, a people here and their opinions can be divided to few groups:

1)rate objectively, with little, or no own feelings

2)rate 1/2 from each

3)rate how you feel this album, because others will know what's bad about it from your point of view.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2009 at 16:05
4.- Review however you want if you believe it's honest, correct, respectful and informative.
 
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