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paganinio View Drop Down
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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Question about Symphonic Rock and Symphonic Metal
    Posted: May 02 2010 at 03:55
I just read a thread from last year about symphonic metal. I was more confused after I read it. So I created this thread.

Let's consider a couple genre equations:
1. Progressive metal = Progressive rock + Metal
2. Folk metal = Folk music + Metal
I think these equations are quite accurate.

Now, which of the following is more accurate?
3. Symphonic metal = Symphonic rock + Metal
4. Symphonic metal = Symphonic music + Metal (a.k.a. metal with orchestral elements. It could be keyboards instead of real orchestras.)

The 3rd equation means that Symphonic metal is Prog.
The 4th equation means that Symphonic metal may or may not be prog.

I think the 4th equation is true, while the 3rd equation is false.

Am I right?
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 04:09
Well, to begin with, prog metal is not necessarily equal to that equation. I mean, I would call something that has metal riffs imposed on a prog rock song as, well, prog rock....such a thing exists too, but it's called Hogweed, not what normally gets called prog metal.  Prog metal, symph metal, these are all METAL genres.  So, the plus here is actually the prog/symph prefix whereas, as in your case too, in prog circles it may often be interpreted as symph rock + metal riffs or prog rock + metal riffs.  Folk metal too is probably metal that sounds folky rather than folk music with metal riffs.  From a metalhead's point of view, it means that it's more important that these genres should sound authentically metal rather than authentically like the genres prefixed to the term metal.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 05:41

Just a minor comment - Symphonic Rock does not equal Symphonic Prog. It is possible to be tagged Symphonic Rock without being Prog, adding strings and symphonic elements to a standard rock format song does not make it Prog. If you removed the orchestration from Symphonic Rock you would be left with just Rock - in Symphonic Prog there is no orchestration to remove - the "symphonic" description relates to how the songs are constructed, their structure, format and instrumentation. There is far more to Symphonic Prog than a few strings.

Similiarily Folk + Rock does not equal Prog Folk - Steeleye Span and Fairport Convention are Folk Rock, related to Prog but not Progressive Folk Rock. Remove the Folk element and you are left with just Rock - do that to Jethro Tull or Mostly Autumn and you're left with Prog Rock.
 
Therefore Symphonic Metal is not Progressive Metal - remove the strings and it's just metal.
What?
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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 06:47
I know what both of you mean. In the end it's the music that matters, not how you tag them.Tongue
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 07:22
Absolutely - it's the music that matters, and this is a Prog lounge in a Prog forum on a Prog site so the music that matters here and now is Prog Rock and Prog Metal. Symphonic Metal is not Prog.
What?
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 07:38
No. 4 is correct RE Symph Metal.

RE Symphonic Rock, Dean is right. People have got used to calling Symphonic Rock what should correctly be named "Orchestral Rock", so it's better to say Symphonic Prog when referring to YES, ELP, etc instead of Symphonic Rock because people will misunderstand you.
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Points: 1029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 19:37
What's the difference between symphonic prog and symphonic rock? All these endless genre tags confuse me. When i hear either of these terms, I think of Yes immediately. 

So symphonic metal isn't prog, then? I always thought that symphonic, power, and prog metal all had strong similarities. So Dream Theater (prog metal) is prog, and Symphony X (symphonic power/prog metal) and Within Temptation (symphonic metal) are not?Confused
Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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paganinio View Drop Down
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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 20:00
Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

What's the difference between symphonic prog and symphonic rock? All these endless genre tags confuse me. When i hear either of these terms, I think of Yes immediately.


A quick example:
David Bowie "Rock N Roll Suicide" has orchestral instruments (that is, Strings), and therefore could be categorized as symphonic rock. But it's not prog.
However, many people think "symphonic rock = symphonic prog". For this reason, we never call Bowie symphonic rock. We should call the song "orchestral rock" instead. It's just a matter of nomenclature/terminology to avoid misunderstanding, that's all.


Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

So symphonic metal isn't prog, then?


Symphonic metal isn't prog by itself.
Some symphonic metal bands have prog elements in their music. We call them Symphonic + Progressive metal.


Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

I always thought that symphonic, power, and prog metal all had strong similarities.


The genres themselves are quite different. But there are A LOT of bands that combine symphonic+power, prog+power, prog+symphonic etc., hence the similarities.
It also depends on the album -- Blind Guardian's early albums were power metal, and later incorporated prog elements.


Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

So Dream Theater (prog metal) is prog, and Symphony X (symphonic power/prog metal) and Within Temptation (symphonic metal) are not?


Within Temptation most certainly aren't prog. They are only symphonic.

Symphony X most certainly are prog metal, with some symphonic elements.

Nightwish lie between those two bands, in terms of progressiveness.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 20:26
Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

What's the difference between symphonic prog and symphonic rock? All these endless genre tags confuse me. When i hear either of these terms, I think of Yes immediately. 
 

I believe the real problem is in the word Symphonic, which is used to describe:

  1. The use of classical music fragments with another genre, can be Rock, or Progressive Rock or Metal, I read sites that describe bands as ELO as Symphonic, only because they add pieces of classical music to rock
  2. The use of Symphony orchestras, orchestras or even wind sections in rock bands, I also seen people calling Days of Future Passed Symphonic Rock when as a fact it is Pop with orchestral intro and coda.
  3. A sub-genre of Progressive Rock.

As I stated before Symphonic is an absolutely inaccurate and vague term, that we keep using only because it's so spread that would be useless to try to change it.

I believe that the main difference is that in Symphonic Prog we find a real blend and not just superficial or artificial additions of Classical fragments, plus of course some other characteristics that we can find in Prog definitions, like complex structure, length etc (Not all of them must be present simultaneously for a band to be considered Prog), wihle the simple use of a Classsical fragment in a Rock band is enough for some people to call the Symphonic Rock..
Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

So symphonic metal isn't prog, then? I always thought that symphonic, power, and prog metal all had strong similarities. So Dream Theater (prog metal) is prog, and Symphony X (symphonic power/prog metal) and Within Temptation (symphonic metal) are not?Confused
 
Symphonic Metal is not necesarilly Prog, a good example is Yngwie Malmsteen.
 
But I believe Even when not remotely a Prog Metal expert), that some Symphonic Metal bands are also Prog Metal, maybe I'm wrong but Pain of Salvation and Symphony X are very close to what I see as Symphonic Metakl.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 02 2010 at 22:57
            
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Points: 12846 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 22:44
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

What's the difference between symphonic prog and symphonic rock? All these endless genre tags confuse me. When i hear either of these terms, I think of Yes immediately. 

 

<SPAN lang=ES-PE>

I believe the real problem is in the word Symphonic, which is used to describe:



  1. The use of classical music fragments with another genre, can be Rock, or Progressive Rock or Metal, I read sites that describe bands as ELO as Symphonic, only because they add pieces of classical music to rock
  2. The use of Symphony orchestras, orchestras or even wind sections in rock bands, I also seen people calling Days of Future Passed Symphonic Rock when as a fact it is Pop with orchestral intro and coda.
  3. A sub-genre of Progressive Rock.

As I stated before Symphonic is an absolutely inaccurate and vague term, that we keep using only because it's so spread that would be useless to try to change it.


I believe that the main difference is that in Symphonic Prog we find a real blend and not just superficial or artificial additions of Classical fragments, plus of course some other characteristics that we can find in Prog definitions, like complex structure, length etc (Not all of them must be present simultaneously for a band to be considered Prog), wihle the simple use of a Classsical fragment in a Rock band is enough for some people to call the Symphonic Rock..

</SPAN>
Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

So symphonic metal isn't prog, then? I always thought that symphonic, power, and prog metal all had strong similarities. So Dream Theater (prog metal) is prog, and Symphony X (symphonic power/prog metal) and Within Temptation (symphonic metal) are not?Confused



 

Symphonic Metal is not necesarilly Prog, a good example is Yngwie Malmsteen.

 

But I believe Even when not remotely a Prog Metal expert), that some Pog Metal bands are also Prog Metal, maybe I'm wrong but Pain of Salvation and Symphony X are very close to what I see as Symphonic Metakl.

 

Iván


You realize you just wrote "Some Prog Metal bands are also Prog Metal", seems one of those "Prog Metal"s was intended to be "Symphonic Metal"
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2010 at 22:58
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:



You realize you just wrote "Some Prog Metal bands are also Prog Metal", seems one of those "Prog Metal"s was intended to be "Symphonic Metal"
 
Of course, already corrected.
 
Some Symphonic Metal bands are also Prog Metal bands.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 453 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2010 at 14:07
Very interesant equations, paganino.Clap

I think -according to the #3 and #4 music equations-, and without having read the previous answers (I have no time now, sorry) that number 3 is more accurate that number 4.

The reason to write this is that even I think  #4 Symphonic metal = Symphonic music + Metal (a.k.a. metal with orchestral elements. It could be keyboards instead of real orchestras.)" is also ok, thatīs a global definition.

Metal bands emerged in the 80s due to the influences and roots of hard rock legends in the 70īs. Metal music is, in pure essence, hard rock. Hard rock is a natural progression from rock bands in the 60īs and 50īs...

In summary, I want to express that #3 definition, or equation, has the same value than #4, cause Metal Music took roots and was born from ROCK. Their natural father and unique basic element along itīs history.

And, for me, #3 equation: Symphonic metal = Symphonic rock + Metal, are the more specific and precise adjectives to explain the definition of Symphonic Metal.

In my humble opinion.
Sergio.


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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2010 at 18:43
you're wrong
3rd equation is wrong
but it doesn't matter as long as you enjoy the music
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Points: 17457 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2010 at 18:50
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Just a minor comment - Symphonic Rock does not equal Symphonic Prog. It is possible to be tagged Symphonic Rock without being Prog, adding strings and symphonic elements to a standard rock format song does not make it Prog. If you removed the orchestration from Symphonic Rock you would be left with just Rock - in Symphonic Prog there is no orchestration to remove - the "symphonic" description relates to how the songs are constructed, their structure, format and instrumentation. There is far more to Symphonic Prog than a few strings.

Similiarily Folk + Rock does not equal Prog Folk - Steeleye Span and Fairport Convention are Folk Rock, related to Prog but not Progressive Folk Rock. Remove the Folk element and you are left with just Rock - do that to Jethro Tull or Mostly Autumn and you're left with Prog Rock.
 
Therefore Symphonic Metal is not Progressive Metal - remove the strings and it's just metal.



Not really a minor comment Dean.  Quite informative, actually. 
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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SergiUriah View Drop Down
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Points: 453 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2010 at 00:44
Originally posted by paganinio paganinio wrote:

you're wrong
3rd equation is wrong
but it doesn't matter as long as you enjoy the music

Well, in this case you should explain the reason why you think I am wrong and youīre right.

I believe 3nd equation is the right one. I explained it yet.Wink


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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2010 at 01:03
I will never explain it to your satisfaction. Just know that I love you and I love symphonic rock.
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Points: 453 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:04
Originally posted by paganinio paganinio wrote:

I will never explain it to your satisfaction. Just know that I love you and I love symphonic rock.

Itīs not for my satisfaction but just to defend your plots. This is not a battle, only a dialogue.

In any case, thanks for your loving. I love music too and I send all my lovinī for you.

  

Peace, brother.

Sergio.


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paganinio View Drop Down
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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:22
no peace, we're at war, because i've been listening to Dream Theater Prophets of War
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Points: 453 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2010 at 05:27
Woow, one of my DTīs prefered songs!! Clap

Just genuine (#3. Symphonic metal = Symphonic rock + Metal) with some opera-rock vocal elements added to it.

You have a very good taste in music...

Cīmon


RawksSmile

Sergio.


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Points: 16449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2010 at 07:45
Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

Woow, one of my DTīs prefered songs!! Clap

Just genuine (#3. Symphonic metal = Symphonic rock + Metal) with some opera-rock vocal elements added to it.

You have a very good taste in music...

Cīmon


RawksSmile

Sergio.
Dean and Ivan expressed it best in their posts. Symphonic Metal is the term givin to bands that combine pop/power/goth metal with orchestration, either MIDI or on occaision a real orchestra. Most of these bands arent remotely prog but there are a few exceptions (most notably Epica). As Ivan said, Symphonic Rock is the same deal but Symphonic Prog tends to be based around classical structures and techniques in the music rather than adding orchestration.
 
Therfore, #4 is correct. 
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

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