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berger_king 
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 Topic: Thoughts on 'Duke'?
Posted: July 28 2010 at 04:35 |
I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.
I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy.
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Blacksword
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 06:30 |
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I've heard it said, from those who saw the band on the Duke tour, that this was the point where Genesis reached their peak as musicians.
I love this album. Only 'Please Dont Ask' and 'Misunderstanding' leave me cold, but generally the band sounds incredibly tight and confident. I dont think they went into the studio thinking 'lets make this our last prog rock album' It was a natural progression from the direction laid down on 'And then there were three' (which I also consider an excellent album) and is in many ways better, and more consistent.
4 star album for me.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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npjnpj
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 06:51 |
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I enjoy Duke a lot, and I don't see the controversy here. As a matter of fact I like it just as much as I do the so-called classics.
Then again, I see the Genesis phases quite differently to others here:
Phase 1 for me is from the first album until (and ending with) Duke.
Phase 2 is Abacab and onwards
Interestingly enough this means that for me both the switch from Gabriel to Collins and the exit of Hackett had no considerable impact on the music Genesis produced. Sorry, but that's how I see (and feel about) it.
Abacab then occurred roughly with the success of Collin's solo debut, something that seems more than a coincidence.
So no. I don't see it as a turning point, but as the last album of phase 1.
Edited by npjnpj - July 28 2010 at 06:52
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Blacksword
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 07:21 |
 npjnpj wrote:
I enjoy Duke a lot, and I don't see the controversy here. As a matter of fact I like it just as much as I do the so-called classics.Then again, I see the Genesis phases quite differently to others here:Phase 1 for me is from the first album until (and ending with) Duke.Phase 2 is Abacab and onwardsInterestingly enough this means that for me both the switch from Gabriel to Collins and the exit of Hackett had no considerable impact on the music Genesis produced. Sorry, but that's how I see (and feel about) it.Abacab then occurred roughly with the success of Collin's solo debut, something that seems more than a coincidence.So no. I don't see it as a turning point, but as the last album of phase 1.
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That's pretty much how I feel. I love everything from Trespass to Duke inclusive.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 07:39 |
Blacksword wrote:
That's pretty much how I feel. I love everything from Trespass to Duke inclusive. |
Pretty much the same for me. Maybe a little less love for the last two in that run. It was between the release of those two albums that I became a serious prog head. By the time Duke came out I had explored all the back catalog and liked everything I had heard. The only song on the album that I'd kick to the curb is Misunderstanding. You can imagine how after getting into all their prog stuff, that to hear this song on a Genesis album was a real WTF??? moment for me. I also have fond memories for the album as I saw them on that tour and got my copy autographed. If you don't have this album, be sure and get the one with the bonus DVD that has a live show.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 07:47 |
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Duke is one of Genesis best post Gabriel albums make no mistake - Side 1 is simply wonderful - Duchess remains one of my favourites
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Roj
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 07:47 |
Before discovering PA, my experience of proggieswas that Duke was considered the last Genesis album with anything of value, and even that was restricted to just one or two tracks.
Personally though I really like Duke. It's good to see some others feel the same way. In fact the run from ATTWT through to Duke is superb in my book. Honestly I prefer ATTWT and W&W to the early albums (call me a Pagan  ), and though Duke isn't as good as those two it's still a fine album. My personal highlight from the album is the fantastic Duchess.
I expect though that the majority felt Genesis were already well onto a downward spiral by the time that Duke was released.
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TODDLER
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 09:06 |
berger_king wrote:
I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.
I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy. |
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it.
There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans.
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refugee
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 09:40 |
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I for one was very disappointed when Duke was released. I felt that the magic was gone, in spite of a few good and rather proggy songs. Obviously there had been signs on earlier records — songs like Your Own Special Way and Follow You, Follow Me aren’t my cup of tea — but Misunderstanding and Please Don’t Ask are hard to forgive. I’m not a big fan of Duchess either; I find the chorus to be extremely banal. The dicline had already started, of course, on Duke you could hear even more clearly the direction the band would take.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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topographicbroadways
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 09:50 |
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My only criticism of the album is that it does drag on abit. Side 1 is great Behind The Lines is one of the great album openers and side one has some terrific songwriting all through. But side 2 all of the songs just feel like theyve been put there too make up time, you are almost asleep by the time the albums top track Dukes Travels begins but that certainly wakes you back up, Dukes Travels/End can compete with other great album closers like Los Endos anyday and is true prog and almost Tony Banks keyboard solo swan song
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Blacksword
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 09:53 |
TODDLER wrote:
berger_king wrote:
I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.
I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy. |
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it. There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans. |
I can imagine the horror of some fans who had been there since the Gabriel years, or even those who had discovered the band around A Trick of the Tail. 'And then there were three' is the real turn around album for the band. Even Duke is arguably more 'prog' The songs on ATTWT were much shorter than the fans had been used to, with a few exceptions. Tracks like 'Many Too Many' and 'Follow you Follow Me' were always going to be too big a step in the wrong direction for many fans.
I got into them around the time of 'Mama' and thought it sounded fantastic, but it was 'Dance on a Volcano' that got me hooked. I worked outwards from that album, if that makes sense (I got WAW and The Lamb next) The new Genesis, although hated by some of the fans of old, also picked up a new generation of fans who instantly took to their older music. Some of them even post here on this very forum! 
As for Duke, I think it's an excellent package of sharp musicianship, and dramatic music. Yes it would have been better without a few of the tracks, but then SEBTP would have been better without 'More fool me' and arguably without 'I know what I like' It's a landmark Genesis album.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Snow Dog
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 10:17 |
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I prefer Abacab.
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LionRocker
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 11:32 |
Have any of you ever believed that there was a concept behind "Duke" because of the few connected song titles? (e.g. "Duchess", "Duke's Travels" etc) The very loose conception behind these song titles really gives way to a lot of interpretation on the listener's behalf, IMO.
For some reason unbeknowest to myself, the concept I always visualized in my head is that the "Duke" is an ordinary, lonely guy who is married to a one hit wonder pop star named Duchess, who works very hard to achieve her past glories but to no avail does this work. (The lyrics in the song "Duchess") Because the Duchess is too concerned with her tours and making a comeback, she forgets about the Duke, who falls into a depression because of his loneliness, (Alone Tonight) and starts lusting after girls in magazines (Lyrics of "Behind the Lines") and on TV ("Turn it on Again") and maybe tries to get another girl in real life? ("Misunderstanding") All of these efforts fail to compensate his loneliness.
I always believed the song "Guide Vocal" was a bitter exchange between the Duke and his wife before she started touring and had to leave that night. Hence the lyrics: (Which I believe is alternating dialogue, stating with the Duchess):
Duchess: I call you for I must leave,
Duke: You're on your own until the end.
Duchess: There was a choice but now it's gone
Duke: I said you wouldn't understand,
Duchess: Take what's yours and be damned.
Somewhere along the lines, there is a divorce ("Please Don't Ask") and the Duke, having no family, decides to try to escape his perpetual loneliness by visiting many exotic places ("Duke's Travels") but can't escape the nagging thoughts of his ex-wife ("Guide Vocal" reprise) and either commits suicide or gets clipped somehow. (Hey, the last song is called "Duke's End", what else am I supposed to think?!)
The only songs I never could fit into that concept above were "Man of Our Times, (which seems to be about an important person rather than the lowly Duke) "Heat-Haze", ( I have no idea what this one is about. "Beware the fisherman who casts his line into a dried up riverbed" That badly veiled metaphor wouldn't even sound good coming out of a fortune cookie) and "Cul-de-Sac (Seems to be a call to arms for lonely men everywhere but they all end up getting massacred like ants? I am not a fan of interpreting Banks' "pseudo-intelligent" lyrics.)
Well, it's just a couple of ideas. The band probably wasn't intending any central idea behind this album. I don't have the SACD/CD remaster for Duke with the interviews so I'm not sure what they thought about the album itself.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 11:36 |
^ Not all the songs on the album a part of the Duke story. Some are just songs. Misunderstanding for one.
The "Duke" story is: - behind the Lines
- Duchess
- Guide Vocal
- Turn it on Again
- Dukes's Travels
- Duke's End
Edited by Snow Dog - July 28 2010 at 11:41
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LionRocker
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 11:42 |
Nah, I know that. It's just fun trying to connect them all. 
I'm really confused if any of it was meant to be a concept anyway, but a fan can speculate about that, I surmise.
Edit: Is that "Duke's Story" official? I'm pretty sure that was a medley they did on stage, right?
Edited by LionRocker - July 28 2010 at 11:46
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Blacksword
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 11:52 |
Snow Dog wrote:
^ Not all the songs on the album a part of the Duke story. Some are just songs. Misunderstanding for one.
The "Duke" story is: - behind the Lines
- Duchess
- Guide Vocal
- Turn it on Again
- Dukes's Travels
- Duke's End
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Quite right, and they were orignally going to make that a side long suite apparently.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Snow Dog
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 12:03 |
LionRocker wrote:
Nah, I know that. It's just fun trying to connect them all.
I'm really confused if any of it was meant to be a concept anyway, but a fan can speculate about that, I surmise.
Edit: Is that "Duke's Story" official? I'm pretty sure that was a medley they did on stage, right? |
They did indeed.
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topographicbroadways
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 12:55 |
LionRocker wrote:
Have any of you ever believed that there was a concept behind "Duke" because of the few connected song titles? (e.g. "Duchess", "Duke's Travels" etc) The very loose conception behind these song titles really gives way to a lot of interpretation on the listener's behalf, IMO.
For some reason unbeknowest to myself, the concept I always visualized in my head is that the "Duke" is an ordinary, lonely guy who is married to a one hit wonder pop star named Duchess, who works very hard to achieve her past glories but to no avail does this work. (The lyrics in the song "Duchess") Because the Duchess is too concerned with her tours and making a comeback, she forgets about the Duke, who falls into a depression because of his loneliness, (Alone Tonight) and starts lusting after girls in magazines (Lyrics of "Behind the Lines") and on TV ("Turn it on Again") and maybe tries to get another girl in real life? ("Misunderstanding") All of these efforts fail to compensate his loneliness.
I always believed the song "Guide Vocal" was a bitter exchange between the Duke and his wife before she started touring and had to leave that night. Hence the lyrics: (Which I believe is alternating dialogue, stating with the Duchess):
Duchess: I call you for I must leave,
Duke: You're on your own until the end.
Duchess: There was a choice but now it's gone
Duke: I said you wouldn't understand,
Duchess: Take what's yours and be damned.
Somewhere along the lines, there is a divorce ("Please Don't Ask") and the Duke, having no family, decides to try to escape his perpetual loneliness by visiting many exotic places ("Duke's Travels") but can't escape the nagging thoughts of his ex-wife ("Guide Vocal" reprise) and either commits suicide or gets clipped somehow. (Hey, the last song is called "Duke's End", what else am I supposed to think?!)
The only songs I never could fit into that concept above were "Man of Our Times, (which seems to be about an important person rather than the lowly Duke) "Heat-Haze", ( I have no idea what this one is about. "Beware the fisherman who casts his line into a dried up riverbed" That badly veiled metaphor wouldn't even sound good coming out of a fortune cookie) and "Cul-de-Sac (Seems to be a call to arms for lonely men everywhere but they all end up getting massacred like ants? I am not a fan of interpreting Banks' "pseudo-intelligent" lyrics.)
Well, it's just a couple of ideas. The band probably wasn't intending any central idea behind this album. I don't have the SACD/CD remaster for Duke with the interviews so I'm not sure what they thought about the album itself.
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well that is the sort of story ending you'd expect from the minds of Phil and Tony. Whether that story is what the band intended or not i shall always listen with that interpritation in mind now, it's a very good concept.
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richardh
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 14:38 |
Blacksword wrote:
I've heard it said, from those who saw the band on the Duke tour, that this was the point where Genesis reached their peak as musicians.
I love this album. Only 'Please Dont Ask' and 'Misunderstanding' leave me cold, but generally the band sounds incredibly tight and confident. I dont think they went into the studio thinking 'lets make this our last prog rock album' It was a natural progression from the direction laid down on 'And then there were three' (which I also consider an excellent album) and is in many ways better, and more consistent.
4 star album for me. |
The BBC recording of the band at the Lyceum 1980 is the best I've ever heard Genesis play for certain. I'm lucky to have a copy of this.
I also agree about ATTWT which is better and more consistent album.
Genesis made a conscious attempt to leave prog behind on Abacab. It was a case of adapt or die,so they adapted to the changing nature of the music biz. They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlier  )
Duke did have some commercial stuff as well as the full on prog of 'The Duke Suite'(split over two sides although envisaged as one peice) and they were to some extent hedging their bets.Perhaps the success of some of the songs on Duke in the charts gave them confidence to go for a complete change of direction.
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berger_king
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Posted: July 28 2010 at 14:39 |
I guess the best view is that while 'Duke' perhaps (intentionally or not) contained the last real 'prog-breaths' of the band, their element of quirkiness and their talent was retained all throughout- it's just how they decied to use their talent. I do think that no matter what era you listen to that all songs have a certain 'feel' to them that you can say that they are unmistakably Genesis. And since some of the things both Peter and Phil did in their solo work aren't radically different, I never understood blaming Phil for the pop change over. Gabriel can certainly get poppy. Maybe it's just his content is viewed as having more integrity.
I mean what Genesis really lost the most after Gabriel's departure is the theatrical quality. That is seen plainly in jumping from Gabriel wearing all his costumes, things like the hair-cut stunt... to having Phil and he just gets up there wearing like a Hawaiian shirt. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Then again Phil was quite a convincing televangelist in that 'Jesus He Knows Me' video haha.
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Thoughts on 'Duke'?
