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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 30356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 14:43
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I prefer Abacab.
LOL
...oh you weren't being serious were you?
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 14:50
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I've heard it said, from those who saw the band on the Duke tour, that this was the point where Genesis reached their peak as musicians. I love this album. Only 'Please Dont Ask' and 'Misunderstanding' leave me cold, but generally the band sounds incredibly tight and confident. I dont think they went into the studio thinking 'lets make this our last prog rock album' It was a natural progression from the direction laid down on 'And then there were three' (which I also consider an excellent album) and is in many ways better, and more consistent. 4 star album for me.



 

The BBC recording of the band at the Lyceum 1980 is the best I've ever heard Genesis play for certain. I'm lucky to have a copy of this.

 

I also agree about ATTWT which is better and more consistent album.

 

Genesis made a conscious attempt to leave prog behind on Abacab. It was a case of adapt or die,so they adapted to the changing nature of the music biz. They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlierWink)

 

Duke did have some commercial stuff as well as the full on prog of 'The Duke Suite'(split over two sides although envisaged as one peice) and they were to some extent hedging their bets.Perhaps the success of some of the songs on Duke in the charts gave them confidence to go for a complete change of direction.


Is that Lyceum show the one on the Duke re-issue CD that came about a few years back?
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Points: 13887 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 14:53
I've said it time and again on the forum, but it's worth saying again. I had no hesitation in giving it a 5 star review. I think it's a fantastic album, with exceptional musicianship, extremely bittersweet lyrics, all wrapped up in quite the perfect combination of pop & prog I am ever likely to hear in my lifetime.

Great album, no doubt.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:00
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


 They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlierWink)

Don't forget Gentle Giant's Giant For A Day.  They almost rebounded with Civilian.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 30356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:45
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I've heard it said, from those who saw the band on the Duke tour, that this was the point where Genesis reached their peak as musicians. I love this album. Only 'Please Dont Ask' and 'Misunderstanding' leave me cold, but generally the band sounds incredibly tight and confident. I dont think they went into the studio thinking 'lets make this our last prog rock album' It was a natural progression from the direction laid down on 'And then there were three' (which I also consider an excellent album) and is in many ways better, and more consistent. 4 star album for me.



 

The BBC recording of the band at the Lyceum 1980 is the best I've ever heard Genesis play for certain. I'm lucky to have a copy of this.

 

I also agree about ATTWT which is better and more consistent album.

 

Genesis made a conscious attempt to leave prog behind on Abacab. It was a case of adapt or die,so they adapted to the changing nature of the music biz. They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlierWink)

 

Duke did have some commercial stuff as well as the full on prog of 'The Duke Suite'(split over two sides although envisaged as one peice) and they were to some extent hedging their bets.Perhaps the success of some of the songs on Duke in the charts gave them confidence to go for a complete change of direction.


Is that Lyceum show the one on the Duke re-issue CD that came about a few years back?
 
Yes it is. I'm playing it nowClap
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 30356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:48
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


 They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlierWink)

Don't forget Gentle Giant's Giant For A Day.  They almost rebounded with Civilian.


At the moment my Gentle Giant collection only goes as far as Freehand so I'll take your wordBig smile
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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:52
Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent.
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Points: 30356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:54
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent.
 
you forgot the Wink
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:54
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I prefer Abacab.
LOL
...oh you weren't being serious were you?

I am serious. Both albums, however, have weak material.
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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:55
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent.
 
you forgot the Wink


I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums.
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Points: 8844 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:57
Originally posted by LionRocker LionRocker wrote:

Have any of you ever believed that there was a concept behind "Duke" because of the few connected song titles? (e.g. "Duchess", "Duke's Travels" etc)  The very loose conception behind these song titles really gives way to a lot of interpretation on the listener's behalf, IMO.

 For some reason unbeknowest to myself, the concept I always visualized in my head is that the "Duke" is an ordinary, lonely guy who is married to a one hit wonder pop star named Duchess, who works very hard to achieve her past glories but to no avail does this work. (The lyrics in the song "Duchess") Because the Duchess is too concerned with her tours and making a comeback, she forgets about the Duke, who falls into a depression because of his loneliness, (Alone Tonight) and starts lusting after girls in magazines (Lyrics of "Behind the Lines") and on TV ("Turn it on Again") and maybe tries to get another girl in real life? ("Misunderstanding") All of these efforts fail to compensate his loneliness.
 
 I always believed the song "Guide Vocal" was a bitter exchange between the Duke and his wife before she started touring and had to leave that night. Hence the lyrics: (Which I believe is alternating dialogue, stating with the Duchess):
 
Duchess: I call you for I must leave,
Duke: You're on your own until the end.
Duchess: There was a choice but now it's gone
Duke: I said you wouldn't understand,
Duchess: Take what's yours and be damned.
 
Somewhere along the lines, there is a divorce ("Please Don't Ask") and the Duke, having no family, decides to try to escape his perpetual loneliness by visiting many exotic places ("Duke's Travels") but can't escape the nagging thoughts of his ex-wife ("Guide Vocal" reprise) and either commits suicide or gets clipped somehow. (Hey, the last song is called "Duke's End", what else am I supposed to think?!)
 
The only songs I never could fit into that concept above were "Man of Our Times, (which seems to be about an important person rather than the lowly Duke) "Heat-Haze", ( I have no idea what this one is about. "Beware the fisherman who casts his line into a dried up riverbed" That badly veiled metaphor wouldn't even sound good coming out of a fortune cookie)  and "Cul-de-Sac (Seems to be a call to arms for lonely men everywhere but they all end up getting massacred like ants? I am not a fan of interpreting Banks' "pseudo-intelligent" lyrics.)
 
Well, it's just a couple of ideas. The band probably wasn't intending any central idea behind this album. I don't have the SACD/CD remaster for Duke with the interviews so I'm not sure what they thought about the album itself.

I came up with a similar story myself when I was really into the album ... although I remember mine somehow involved Duke being powerful enough to raise a small army, which he had to march into war and eventually lost (Duke's End), and the Duchess side of things was the human aspect of this Duke and the sorrow of his personal life. Misunderstanding in my interpretation represented the point when his Duchess (a music star) abandoned him for the road life, although they had children together before that point whom she got to keep. Please Don't Ask is an older Duke visiting a more sedate Duchess, the years of separation leaving them with a quiet respect for each other if no longer the flame that brought them together, and him visiting her and the kids one last time before he goes off to war.
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Points: 30356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2010 at 15:58
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent.
 
you forgot the Wink


I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums.
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 04:12
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:


Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent.







 

you forgot the Wink
I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an
epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and
enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums.


You American psycho you...
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 04:19
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I've heard it said, from those who saw the band on the Duke tour, that this was the point where Genesis reached their peak as musicians. I love this album. Only 'Please Dont Ask' and 'Misunderstanding' leave me cold, but generally the band sounds incredibly tight and confident. I dont think they went into the studio thinking 'lets make this our last prog rock album' It was a natural progression from the direction laid down on 'And then there were three' (which I also consider an excellent album) and is in many ways better, and more consistent. 4 star album for me.



 

The BBC recording of the band at the Lyceum 1980 is the best I've ever heard Genesis play for certain. I'm lucky to have a copy of this.

 

I also agree about ATTWT which is better and more consistent album.

 

Genesis made a conscious attempt to leave prog behind on Abacab. It was a case of adapt or die,so they adapted to the changing nature of the music biz. They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlierWink)

 

Duke did have some commercial stuff as well as the full on prog of 'The Duke Suite'(split over two sides although envisaged as one peice) and they were to some extent hedging their bets.Perhaps the success of some of the songs on Duke in the charts gave them confidence to go for a complete change of direction.
Is that Lyceum show the one on the Duke re-issue CD that came about a few years back?



 

Yes it is. I'm playing it nowClap


Yep, I have that too. It is a damn fine performance..
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Points: 10616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 07:27
I think ATTWT was moving towards a more commercial sound, Duke is for some part restoring the prog ethic, and Abacab brings them finally towards a more pop oriented band. I'm not sure how much of this is done deliberately, though. Genesis was constantly evolving.
 
Having said that, I really like the Duke album. Especially the "Duke suite",  Heathaze and Please Don't Ask. Throughout the entire album there's some excellent playing also, most notably in the suite.
 
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 13:14
I do think it's a shame they didn't have the Dukes as one suite rather than split, but nothing says you can't rearrange the album to do that when you're listening to it.  It seems like they were walking a fine line between trying to attract pop fans and not alienate their loyal ones with this album.  I was thinking if they could have put the suite on the first side and the hit type material on the second leading off with Misunderstanding.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 14:04
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


 They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlierWink)

Don't forget Gentle Giant's Giant For A Day.  They almost rebounded with Civilian.


Who was the guy that influenced Gentle Giant to record albums like this? It was like a business venture between him and the Giant. I can't remember his name but,...I sure remember how he was hated.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 14:11
I don't know if this helps:
  All songs by Ray, Derek and Kerry
  except "Friends" written by John
  and "Take Me" lyrics co-written by John and Derek
  Published by Alucard Pub. Ltd./Chrysalis Music Ltd.

  A Gentle Giant Production
  Engineered by Paul Northfield at Ramport Studios, Battersea
  - assisted by Neil.
  Maison Rouge, Fulham.
  Scorpio Sound Studios, Euston
  - assisted by Steve.
  Remix at Scorpio Sound Studios.
  Recorded April/May, 1978.
  Copyright Alucard/Friday Music.

  Cover concept: Ray, Tanner, Eve and Pils Lager
  Front cover illustration: Peter Owen
  Back cover photography: Gered Mankowitz
  Equipment: Michael Ambrose
  Acoustic guitars courtesy of Norman Guitars, Quebec, Canada.

Note: "Ray, Tanner, Eve, and Pils Lager" means Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nicknamed Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer. That's Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nickname Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer.


Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 34099 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 14:27
and Derek Shulman signed Bon Jovi, Slipknot, Dream Theater, what more...NIckelbeck Angry ( I some how  like How You Remind Me), and Pantera.

Edited by aginor - July 29 2010 at 14:27
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 16:29
The one thing about Duke that always irked me was the 'reprise' at the end... to me it just seems like 'oh, we're running out of ideas, let's just play this stuff again but we'll throw it all together'. I guess it serves a thematic purpose and that would have been strengthened if the Duke 'suite' remained intact as planned on the album.
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