thoughts on the Holocaust

I knew this was going to turn into a sh*tstorm.

 

Any Colour You Like wrote: I knew this was going to turn into a sh*tstorm.

I don't see any sh*tstorms.

Any Colour You Like wrote: Henry Plainview wrote:   Any Colour You Like wrote: I knew this was going to turn into a sh*tstorm. I don't see any sh*tstorms. I'll re-phrase that then. I forsee this turning into a sh*tstorm.

OH yeah, this is PA.
Someone will somehow find someway to make the holocaust into an argument!

Three things I'd like to add:

First, I do not think that Schindler's List is a bad film, because it clearly shows that every German could have done anything against the inhumanity, if he really wanted to, but nearly no one did . Instead, many blame it to the circumstances . So that's why I think that every German should see the film, to think about what a shame it was that there weren't more Schindlers among us or our forefathers.

Secondly, there was the question, what happened to the Nazis after the war was over. Only very few were convicted. Some scientists and military experts simply continued under a 'new flag', on both sides of the Cold War. Especially the U.S. recruited them (e.g. Werner von Braun). Some very 'exposed' Nazis fled to South America. In West Germany the majority of the Nazis simply continued to work, and it was only during the student's protests in the 60's that the German public became aware of this. In the 70's the education was improved and the new generation learnt finally something about the Holocaust (before that history lessons ended with Weimar Republic). In East Germany more Nazis in higher posts were replaced (than in West Germany), because of the 'usual' purges against non-Communists.

And finally, this is a thread about the Holocaust, and I do not like it if people sum up in the same context other genocides, and try to compare the number of victims, because it tends to turn into the argument: "The Holocaust was not so bad because of..." etc. This is really counterproductive.


Edited by Formentera Lady - October 08 2010 at 06:41

Henry Plainview.

The difference between Stalin's Gulag, which killed more than Hitler's Holocaust, is that Stalin did not do this on the basis of the idea of race. Stalin did Gulag for other reasons. 

Holocaust was based on the idea of race where the socalled Aryan race was the superhumans and the slavs, the roman people and the Jews was the subhumans. Remember, the German & the Austrian Communists was not sent to the gas chambers. The Jews was and that on an industrial scale like a steelmaker in Pennsylvania did when they made steel from ore.  

That's sets Holocaust apart from any other genocides.   

 

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:   Having said that, is there anyone out there who know of any holocaust survivors on a personal level? It would be a fascinating discussion, if grim.

I have spoken to both sides regarding a book project fifteen years ago. A book project I did not publish at that time, but it may be published later. I am still pretty shaken by what I heard and by the attitudes expressed. 

I also had a distant relative who was both at the Nuremberg Rally (as a student in Germany) and was sent to a KZ camp some years later. What he told me about both experiences very much vaccinated me against both the Maoists (which was in vogue in Norway when I grew up) and the Nazis. Hence, I believe in the individual's civil right vs the state and in my rights to express my belief that both systems are very wrong without being sent to a camp in a faraway place. 

  

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - October 08 2010 at 07:26

toroddfuglesteg wrote:   AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:   Having said that, is there anyone out there who know of any holocaust survivors on a personal level? It would be a fascinating discussion, if grim. I have spoken to both sides regarding a book project fifteen years ago. A book project I did not publish at that time, but it may be published later. I am still pretty shaken by what I heard and by the attitudes expressed.  I also had a distant relative who was both at the Nuremberg Rally (as a student in Germany) and was sent to a KZ camp some years later. What he told me about both experiences very much vaccinated me against both the Maoists (which was in vogue in Norway when I grew up) and the Nazis. Hence, I believe in the individual's civil right vs the state and in my rights to express my belief that both systems are very wrong without being sent to a camp in a faraway place.

rushfan4 wrote: AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:   I readtoday that Mengele performed atrocities on twins in particular - over 6000 twins were experimented on and only 100 survived according to "Angel of Death" website. A monster or a victim of nazi law? You be the judge., http://www.auschwitz.dk/mengele.htm   of course you can get upset but that doesnt help -     Not to lessen the experiments that Mengele did, but I just read an article yesterday that said that President Obama and Hillary Clinton offered an apology to the President of Guatemala a couple of days ago for syphilus experiments that were done on Guatemalans in the 40's/50's by an American doctor.  Apparently, he infected Guatemalans with the disease leaving some untreated to see the speed and effects and testing others with experiments, which were apparently all failures.  An argument could be made that this was something that was done for a "good cause" to try and come up with a cure for the disease and to better understand the disease, but I think that almost all of us would agree that using humans as lab rats is pretty despicable, especially without their consent.    I guess my point to this post was that even the "good guys" were doing some pretty despicable things.   Here is a link to the article:   http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101001/hl_afp/usguatemalahealthsexdisease

Its a vicious cycle and it goes on despite the lessons, we may never learn. How do we escape the idea that humans cease to be human when they are made into something other than human such as an experiment. To remove the humanity is to open the way to do the unthinkable, and this is what happens when absolute power is given, when the boundaries are removed, the result is chaos and anarchy, though the Nazis were systematic in their Final Solution....   They knew how to remove the problem of the jew but their problem became what to do with the bodies once extermination was complete. Their solution was simple, bury it all and burn it - hide the evidence, or experiment with it in the name of medical science... some things are worse than death...

Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - October 08 2010 at 09:29

Henry Plainview wrote:   Any Colour You Like wrote: I knew this was going to turn into a sh*tstorm. I don't see any sh*tstorms.

Henry Plainview wrote: I honestly do not understand how the intent can make a death any worse. It really does not matter whether or not they were murdered for being an ethnic/religious minority, political dissenters, or Dream Theater fans. They are still dead. And genocides generally are about race, that's part of the definition.

lol dibs in