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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
 Posted: January 26 2011 at 00:48 |
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Nah, I still feel more alienated every day from politics in general, but just stating the fact I WAS happy with the Obama/Dem congress and was hoping for a progressive agenda, and it failed.
That was all. If it happened today I'd realize that realistically...not much "change" was coming. Although I can't disagree I am lost politically to an extent. My views are, after all, still drifting. I never like to stay permanently settled, I'm progressive! Edited by JJLehto - January 26 2011 at 00:49 |
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 00:54 |
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Why, after all these pages, do you still cling onto the idea that a "progressive" agenda is a good thing?
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 Time always wins. |
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 00:58 |
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Oh, and while I'm posting Stossel stuff, here is his SOTU:
Hopefully, FOX Business will get around to posting the video of his coverage at some point.
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Time always wins. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 01:07 |
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Because...it's what I believe.
I won't bother explaining since it's always useless...but I can be progressive and believe in Capitalism and Markets. I am certainly not comfortable with markets being everything, as some of you guys want. Semi tangent: We got bogged down in econ talk...I consider a progressive agenda the whole plate. Total gay rights, drug legalization, all the stuff we agree on and ignore  Note Obama never gave any real support for legalizing even weed, and the DADT repeal came from Congress...and even that was pointlessly delayed just for the sake of it. No Gay Marriage either. A few non econ points I havn't been happy with. I thought his handling of BP was fine, (like he could do much). My friend was one of those who felt the government should've seized BP and hold their assets, to make sure the fine can be paid and use the money for cleanup. See? I'm not the most crazy out there. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 01:08 |
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Oh, note I said alienated.
I still truly believe what I believe at my core, but just accept it will never happen in the US. |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 01:34 |
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Because you haven't convinced him otherwise? I'm confused why you even uttered this question, much less in such an exasperated tone. This may cause an unwanted amount of introspection on your part with regard to the amount of time you've spent arguing, but people's opinions are almost changed through a forum discussion. Anyway, I hope we can all agree that the Michele Bachmann response was creepy and weird. TPM said it best.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 01:35 |
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That's short and to the point! Edit: OK, I need to watch the SOTU now, as well as the Rep response and the Tea Party one Edited by JJLehto - January 26 2011 at 01:36 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 09:25 |
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Look you can as progressive as you want, but you can't say this. The two things are just incompatible. You're putting two mutually exclusive things into one whole. If you mean you believe in a mixed economy, that's still not a tenable position. A mixed economy by definition negates the self correcting aspects necessary for a market to function. In a way, a mixed economy is worse than pure socialism. It's kind of like this. Capitalism tells people to learn how to swim then pushes them into a lake. Socialism ties someone's arms and legs, throws a lifejacket on them, and pushes them into a lake. A mixed economy ties someone's arms and legs, then pushes them into a lake. And then of course eventually people say, all of these people are drowning, the government should provide lifejackets for them. This is probably a better alternative to people drowning, but of course the proposal to simply remove the ropes is never mentioned.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 09:26 |
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Why would anyone waste their time watching the State of the Union?
If you want a huge spectacle which means absolutely nothing go to Church and replace God with President in everything the priest says. Ron Paul had this to say though: Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 26 2011 at 09:27 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 09:29 |
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 09:33 |
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Why would I waste time explaining it to you?
JJ knows I'll go into as much detail as he wants. It's analogy because those are fun and illustrate points. He himself said he wasn't going to bother explaining his position. I can't respond to a position he doesn't explain. Thanks for your input though. Point out obvious irrelevant facts anytime you would like. The net force on an object is the change of its linear momentum with respect to time. See look I can say things that everyone knows too.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 10:15 |
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I stop in every now and then during the day. I'm not wasting any time that wasn't already set aside for wasting. JJ's just stubborn and you just can't read tone. That was about as bland and emotionless a question as you can ever pose and, if you recall, I'm the one that's argued time and time again that human emotion needs to be eliminated from politics. I do like using sarcasm and occasionally talking down to someone but that's purely for my own ammusement. You must be an awesome internet poker player, though, considering you can somehow read people without seeing them. That is, if you were ever right.
I will say, though, that I am happy for The T. He's been able to break through the preconceived notions about government that he had when he started here. Edited by manofmystery - January 26 2011 at 10:23 |
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Time always wins. |
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The T
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:31 |
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I confess that starting to approach the libertarian view of things is quite socially difficult. Suddenly you find yourself debating, arguing almost to the point of fighting with people who say "it's not possible". I realized, though, that debating this with people older than 55-60 (like my parents, whom I totally love anyway, but a good political talk arises every 360 days) is pointless. At that point in life, nearer to the decline that to the ascension to the summit, people want to feel safe and keep what, according to them, has been working always. It's understandable. Younger people are the ones still capable of seeing better things in difficult changes. Now when today's young and adult libertarians grow older they have different preconceptions and every change will be less difficult.
I never understood, even when I was leaning towards the extreme left (my totally fake communist days added here) why that view is called "progressive". I never understood it, much less today of course. And HP, people's opinions are rarely changed through forum discussion. But this can act as a spark...
Edited by The T - January 26 2011 at 11:32 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:36 |
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True, Pat will have no problem doing so.
This is why I don't bother, pretty sure I've said this before about our totally different foundations. You guys see Capitalism as totally free and without bounds. So yeah, I can see how what I say is impossible. I personally believe a more moderate form, or mixed economy, is fine. I'm not so black and white is all. I guess yeah, a mixed economy by its very definition is not pure capitalism, but I don't think it has to be of course. Besides I still believe most things should be privately owned anyway. Not sure what else ya want there. I do know I've said all this before Pat  As Anton said, I only contributed to 200+ pages...Edited by JJLehto - January 26 2011 at 11:37 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:39 |
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I can say that being an Anarchist and a libertarian before that is very difficult in social situations. When political discussions come up at work, I can't participate. When they come up in front of strangers, they turn into a comedy act where everybody simply laughs at the ridiculousness of the position.
Even when discussing among my friends, the reaction is quite hostile. They're interested in the theory, but don't agree with it at all. My girlfriend insists that I'm playing a joke on everyone. (I told my friends for three years that I believe in a Flat Earth and argued vehemently to support it, so there is a precedent for such behavior)
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:41 |
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Yeah, for a bit (just a bit) I honest to god, was thinking you at least exaggerate your views.
Which is why I've always said don't you realistically feel your beliefs are impossible? Maybe less than mine. At least moderate type capitalist democracies exist. No where is there a total and utter market driven state. Even with all the libertarian hype going on, it won't be near what you advocate Pat. And if anyone tried, the masses will think that person insane. Do you want a revolution? Or maybe the dictatorship to guide things than wither away with time. That worked for Lenin! Didn't it?? Edited by JJLehto - January 26 2011 at 11:43 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:42 |
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I understand that. I'm not black and white either, it's just that the things don't work when mixed. You can't have unregulated banking with a Federal Reserve for example. That mix of market and government doesn't work. The function of government interference destroys self-regulating mechanisms in the market, which begets future regulation, and eventually control because more regulation further corrupts market processes. It's like expecting Zombies and Humans to live peacefully. There's no equilibrium. You'll either have all Zombies or all Humans at some point. [EDIT: Two math students actually showed a stable equilibrium existed in a Zombie apocalypse scenario, but they made some unrealistic assumptions for the model that made that so.]
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 26 2011 at 11:43 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:43 |
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After all, HP hasn't really been one of the thread's most frequent contributors, though we all gladly receive him as this thread is, without a doubt, the best and most entertaining in all PA...
 Reading Hayek, I quite like his view... A small state that helps the market by setting rules and a structural framework (laws, infrastructure, courts, defense of rights); he still believes in public ownership of roads and police and I'm quite with him on this... for now. Anarcho-capitalism is just a tad too far for me, as I believe that, even in that situation, people will again join together and decide that a centralized police force and law system works better, as do public roads. I'm starting to get curious about the whole health care thing though I still believe a safety net for the elderly and for those in dire situations is a desirable goal. If we were to drop so much futility in our governmental structure and so much useless spending, maybe I could live with some form of taxation to fund this, though I'd understand why, in principle, it's still incompatible with a true free market and society. Rob's consumption tax might work here..
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:44 |
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Just to make sure this got it's deserved attention |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: January 26 2011 at 11:47 |
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I think I've mentioned this before, but there have been some alternate ideas floating around in my head.
Like use of micro loaning. I'd be ok with that replacing a good bit of welfare, (there should still be some of course!) It's something I would need to really look into and think about but yeah. |
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Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
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manofmystery wrote: