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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:00 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
The T wrote:
People should remember that it was a democratic procedure that put the Nazis in power in the first place. A populace that starts accepting all forms of regulation of people's actions and that is desperate will eventually elect a totalitarist... |
Hmmm....perhaps my German history is rusty, but as I recall, Hitler subverted the electoral process. Hitler came in 2nd place to Hindenburg in the 1932 election, but under Hindenburg's presidency Hitler became Chancellor. When Hindenburg died before his term was over, Hitler forcefully grabbed the reigns of power and abolished the presidency altogether. Hitler was never "elected" to lead Germany.
As far as the German law banning swastikas, I do not see any great stab at totalitarianism on the part of Germany (or West Germany, for most of the period) since it was enacted 65 years ago. |
I agreed with you up until the forcefully grabbed the reigns of power. The Enabling Act and The Reichstag Fire Decree were both passed legally. He came to power through the proper channels of government. EDIT: I'm pretty sure he even had the bill re-voted into law periodically.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - March 01 2011 at 13:01
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:00 |
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:26 |
It's not even a matter of if Hitler won or no. The party was second in the previous elections with around 33%. 33%. A society where a totalitarian, state-above-all, prussian-army-oriented, racist party is almost the one with the largest number of votes, is ripe and ready for totalitarianism. And then in the next process it would all be confirmed. Societies that start accepting the government to regulate everything are accepting that the individual has little value. From there to Auschwitz is not such a long walk...
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thellama73
Collaborator
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 8368
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:28 |
The stupidity of this law is echoed by hate-speech laws all over the world. The notion that you can stop an idea by banning a word or gesture that connotes it is ludicrous. Words and gestures are arbitrary. Ideas will stick around and we'll just find another way to say them. You see this again and again with PC speech in the US.
We used to call people with mental disabilities "simple" which seems a lovely word to me, but some people used it in an insulting way, so they changed it to "retarded," which after all only means "slowed." But this did nothing to change the way people thought and some people still used the word hatefully, so it became "mentally challenged" which seems to me far crueler than "simple" but it still has done nothing to change the original idea that authorities found distasteful. I think "mentally challenged" is on the way out as well, but who can keep track really? Banning a swastika or a salute will never do anything to stop hateful ideas from existing.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 14:29 |
It's time for British but mainly for USA people, to learn that the conception of freedom of speech, is not universal, some of us value more the rights of the victim than abuse of freedom of speech.
For some countries, some acts and demonstrations are offensive, so we are in the right to ban them, if you don't like it, it's your problem, I believe there's an extraordinarily abuse of freedom of speech in USA, but that's the USA problem, not ours.
For example, most of you know about Shinning Path, who killed 70,000 Peruvians in the best Pol Pot style (crashing the heads of those who opposed with big stones or blowing streets), OK, it has almost ended, but when it was in the peak, some newspapers made propaganda of their acts, so a crime called apology of terrorism was created......Many didn't liked i in Europe, but it was our right to protect ourselves, and later was discovered that the economic propaganda of this newspapers was used to send code messages to terrorists...So we were right
In the same way, the Nazi salute is offensive to Germans, they have the right to decide if they ban it or not, and nobody has the right to criticize them, it's the voice of the majority.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 01 2011 at 15:06
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:06 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
It's time for British but mainly for USA people, to learn that the conception of freedom of speech, is notuniversal.
For some countries, some acts and demonstrations are offensive, so we are in the right to ban them, if you don't like it, it's your problem, I believe there's an extraordinarily abuse of freedom of speech in USA, but that's the USA problem, not ours. |
You mean that you do ban them, and that you think you are in the right. I disagree with the second statement. You should learn that your opinions aren't universal.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:08 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
It's time for British but mainly for USA people, to learn that the conception of freedom of speech, is notuniversal.
For some countries, some acts and demonstrations are offensive, so we are in the right to ban them, if you don't like it, it's your problem, I believe there's an extraordinarily abuse of freedom of speech in USA, but that's the USA problem, not ours. |
You mean that you do ban them, and that you think you are in the right. I disagree with the second statement. You should learn that your opinions aren't universal.
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I don't ban them, Peruvian law ban this acts (As German law bans Nazi salute), and nobody outside our country has the right to judge our laws.
Perú It's our country, and we decide what is better for us, we are not a colony of USA or UK, so we can create the laws we believe are better for us.
In the same way, Germans can create the laws they want inside their country.
Iván.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 01 2011 at 15:20
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 13338
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:09 |
The T wrote:
Yes your history is rusty. Is rusty because it doesn't take into account that the big opposing party to Hitler's first ascension were the socialists, another state-above-individual movement that got ahold of the Prussian mentality. The nazis came in second but they were already such a power that Hindenburg asked Hitler to be his chancellor. Then only after Hindenburg died did he eliminate the Presidency and declare himself Fuhrer and Reichkanzler. He had eliminated oppositio first, and his first rivals to be put away were the communists, you know, those with quite a similar view but with a differen t color. Yes, the conditions in Germany were ripe for totalitarianism to take hold. Yes your history is rusty, or better yet, simplistic. |
Simplistic? Well, I suppose I did offer a one sentence reply to your specious statement that "it was a democratic procedure that put the Nazis in power in the first place." It was subversion and corruption of the process, falsity, assassination, sabotage and the coercion of the feeble-minded Hindenburg (84 years old, and by all accounts senile) that brought about Hitler's consolidation of power prior to dissolving the Reichstag and eliminating the presidency. But referring to Hitler reaching his goal through the democratic process is antithetical to his actual repugnant methods.
I will not argue that the situation was ripe for totalitarianism, but the sentiment for totalitarianism and its root cause in Germany grew from the incredibly punitive Treaty of Versailles. If ever there was a document that guaranteed another war, it certainly ranks right up there with the Treaty of Bretigny of 1360 as an agreement so obnoxious to the losing side that war was inevitable.
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I agreed with you up until the forcefully grabbed the reigns of power. The Enabling Act and The Reichstag Fire Decree were both passed legally. He came to power through the proper channels of government..
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It depends on your definition of "passed legally". If you consider that communists (which accounted for 12% of the Reichstag) were banned from voting, and that many social-democrats were forcibly stopped from taking their seats by Nazi thugs, I believe it's noted that the Nazis would not have had the majority required to pass that act.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:22 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
It's time for British but mainly for USA people, to learn that the conception of freedom of speech, is notuniversal.
For some countries, some acts and demonstrations are offensive, so we are in the right to ban them, if you don't like it, it's your problem, I believe there's an extraordinarily abuse of freedom of speech in USA, but that's the USA problem, not ours. |
You mean that you do ban them, and that you think you are in the right. I disagree with the second statement. You should learn that your opinions aren't universal.
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I don't ban them, Peruvian law ban this acts (As German law bans Nazi salute), and nobody outside our country has the right to judge our laws.
Perú It's our country, and we decide what is better for us, we are not a colony of USA or UK, so we can create the laws we believe are better for us.
In the same way, Germans can create the laws they want inside their country.
Iván.
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So if you slaughtered every newborn female for a good harvest I have no right to judge your laws? I can judge whatever the hell I want to judge.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:23 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
It depends on your definition of "passed legally". If you consider that communists (which accounted for 12% of the Reichstag) were banned from voting, and that many social-democrats were forcibly stopped from taking their seats by Nazi thugs, I believe it's noted that the Nazis would not have had the majority required to pass that act. |
I've heard that those numbers were pretty specious. Of course I don't know for sure. I'm not sure that it's necessary though. Just the vast numbers themselves are shocking.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:33 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
So if you slaughtered every newborn female for a good harvest I have no right to judge your laws? I can judge whatever the hell I want to judge.
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Please Equality, don't make a "reductio ad absurdum".
If a crime against humanity is commuted, the United Nations can even send troops, but we are talking about our perception of freedom of Speech for our reality, a reality about wich you don't know a damn thing..
You can criticize what you want, but we are allowed to ignore your opinion...It's our country and you have no business about our laws.
So let us decide our fate.
Iván
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:37 |
Ivan wrote:
nobody outside our country has the right to judge our laws. |
I think we took this to mean that no one has the right to criticize your country's laws. Did you mean something else?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:42 |
Padraic wrote:
Ivan wrote:
nobody outside our country has the right to judge our laws. |
I think we took this to mean that no one has the right to criticize your country's laws. Did you mean something else? |
Did any country helped us to deal with terrorism?
The answer is no, and we asked, UK captured a l terrorist spokesman (Adolfo Olaechea) and said that he had committed no crime in UK so they didn't send him to Perú. (I'm sure that if USA asked for a terrorist, UK wouldn't ignore the request), so if you can't help, at least let us deal with our problems.
The perception of freedom of speech that USA or UK have is OK for them, but is not universal, each country has autonomy.
Iván.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 01 2011 at 15:49
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:45 |
 I know this has nothing to do with nazi saluting but I feel like talking about German airplanes. My first experiences with airplanes was with models and the weirder the more interesting. Plastic kits from Frog and Airfix depicting German aircraft were the most iteresting and I built quite a few. I think my dad was a bit worried at one point though. He bought me a Lancaster once but I had a whole Geswadwer of German fighters. One of the most interesting was the Blohm & Voss Bv 141 experimental reconnaissance aircraft. It's asymetrical design was revolutionary just like many German designs that explored everything from supersonic flight to variable geometry wings. Suprisingly the Bv 141 was very stable and the engineers had got it right with the torque generated by the BMW 801 radial engine cancelling out the offset godola that contained a three man crew. It was suprisingly stable with textbook pitch and roll characteristics, somewhat of a flying paradox that even suprised the test pilots and designers. It was also a challenge for a 12 year-old kid to make because of the detail required in painting the glazed crew gondola
Edited by Vibrationbaby - March 01 2011 at 15:47
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:59 |
Wow, so it is true. We all hear "You'll be arrested in Germany for doing the Nazi salute or saying I love Hitler" but never really believed it. Guess it's 100% legit. Doesn't even need to be said how bad the Nazi regime was but that is justification in 2011 for censorship? Maybe some of our German friends can answer this for me: Do textbooks and all that really just ignore the whole Nazi era? Like the whole joke about how nothing happened at all from 1939-1945?
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Points: 5319
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:04 |
Is the freedom of speech of us terrible Americans offensive?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:07 |
Not offensive, but neither our conception of freedom of speech..
We respect what you do in your country, you should accept what we do in our's.
Iván
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Padraic
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Points: 31169
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:10 |
I still don't understand why any country's laws would be exempt from criticism.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
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Points: 7971
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:12 |
JJLehto wrote:
Wow, so it is true.
We all hear "You'll be arrested in Germany for doing the Nazi salute or saying I love Hitler" but never really believed it. Guess it's 100% legit.
Doesn't even need to be said how bad the Nazi regime was but that is justification in 2011 for censorship?
Maybe some of our German friends can answer this for me: Do textbooks and all that really just ignore the whole Nazi era? Like the whole joke about how nothing happened at all from 1939-1945?

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Nah bro, they visit camps and nazi stuff wile in school years. That complete denial is 100% Japanese. It is so brutal that if you, as a Japanese, even mention it some people may consider you a traitor of trhe nation, pretty much as if you have burned down the real USA constitution as an American. But again, Japan barely had any punishment during the post-war years OR during the war itself, so I guess that's pretty much explained why there are people that actually behave/think like that.
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timothy leary
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Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Points: 5319
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:24 |
So let's see Ivan, you can say" I believe there's an extr.....abuse of freedom of speech in America" but I better say nothing about Peru, which admittedly since I know little about Peru, I would not do anyway but see here in America we "abuse" freedom of speech if such a thing can be done
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