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Posted: October 16 2011 at 14:39
It's not hatred. It's the fact that it has been amply clear that Tom Waits is not going to be added to the site, so there really is no reason for you to be beating the dead horse again and again for something that just won't happen. No, I'm not a huge Waits fan but I do enjoy some of his work. However, I still believe he has no place here. So, you trying to shove the same arguments down our throats again and again is quite utterly pointless.
So please, stop trying.
If he was rejected, accept the fact that he was rejected. Please.
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Posted: October 16 2011 at 15:25
OK, first things first, I love everything I've heard by Tom Waits so far. I own Swordfishtrombones and have played it inside out over the last couple of years. I'm genuinely relishing the prospect of exploring his discography further. Please don't construe my reluctance to consider him a viable candidate for avant-prog as some kind of hatred of his music. Whether I like it or not has nothing to do with what kind of genre it is or isn't.
So, down to the nitty gritty...
beaverteeth92 wrote:
1. Even if there is a difference, it's irrelevant for purposes of this discussion because both are included on the same page. But for avant prog, Waits clearly meets almost all of the criteria.
Regular use of dissonance and atonality - virtually everything he's released after Swordfishtrombones
I really don't hear much atonality or dissonance on Swordfishtrombones at all. A bit of wonkiness here and there but, aside from Dave the Butcher (which is one brief organ instrumental) it's a surprisingly melodic, tuneful album.
Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements - not as often, but present quite often on everything up to around 2002
I just don't buy this one at all. There is nothing radical in any of the arrangements I've heard so far. They generally follow quite standard song arrangements are more often than not we're looking at 4/4, 6/8 and other standard time signatures.
Free or experimental improvisation - See #1
This statement refers to the kind of free improv found in free jazz, improv groups like AMM etc. Genuinely atonal, uninhibited improvisation. I've yet to find any evidence of that in Waits' music.
Fusion of disparate musical genres - practically every single album or song he's ever recorded
This doesn't mean albums which vary a bit from song to song, this refers to bands like Mr Bungle who can leap from jazz to middle eastern folk to techno within a single five minute song.
Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures - admittedly very rare, but as far as I know, missing one part of the criteria is not enough to exclude an entire artist.
You're right, missing one element is not enough, but missing them all? Well, I think our decision's justified in those circumstances.
2. I'm flat-out asking why Swordfishtrombones was rejected on that basis, since I gave four specific reasons as to why that album and Tom Waits are good enough for inclusion. So far, the only reasoning I have is that someone listened to it and arbitrarily decided that it wasn't progressive. I also added more reasons above, as you can see.
Hopefully by giving you a bit more detail above you'll understand why the team, and a lot of other members of this site are against this addition. I was originally going to go through Swordfishtrombones track by track for you but it soon became apparent I was repeating myself. Please accept that, at least on the strength of that album, he will not be added to avant-prog.
3. Swordfishtrombones, Rain Dogs, Frank's Wild Years, Blood Money
I'll check out Rain Dogs soon (it was on my to do list anyway) but unless I hear something radically different to Swordfishtrombones then I can't see my opinion shifting on this issue.
So hopefully this post will help to make our decision seem less arbitrary. On that note, I think we should let the matter rest.
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Posted: October 16 2011 at 15:50
Okay. I was just sick of the fact that for almost a page no one was willing to address specific points I was making with regard to his inclusion. Now that you have, I feel significantly more comfortable about it.
But is he seriously not good enough for even prog-related while bands like Blue Öyster Cult and Deep Purple are?
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Posted: October 16 2011 at 16:01
beaverteeth92 wrote:
Okay. I was just sick of the fact that for almost a page no one was willing to address specific points I was making with regard to his inclusion. Now that you have, I feel significantly more comfortable about it.
But is he seriously not good enough for even prog-related while bands like Blue Öyster Cult and Deep Purple are?
I don't think anyone said anything about not being good enough for PR or whatever. I love him to bits, he is brilliant. But I don't think he is PR in any way either (Although I'm not really bothered).
You don't necessarily have to be good to be 'Prog Related' you could (I guess) be rubbish prog! (Although some might say thats impossible).
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Posted: October 16 2011 at 16:12
beaverteeth92 wrote:
Okay. I was just sick of the fact that for almost a page no one was willing to address specific points I was making with regard to his inclusion. Now that you have, I feel significantly more comfortable about it.
But is he seriously not good enough for even prog-related while bands like Blue Öyster Cult and Deep Purple are?
Well, can you define these points?
Has he made an
1) Influence on progressive rock - The groundbreaking work of artists like Led Zepplin and David Bowie affected many genres of rock, including at times progressive rock. Although both of these artists created rock music in a dizzying array of genres, both contributed to the ongoing history of progressive rock several times within the span of their careers.
Is he in a relative
2) Location - Progressive rock did not develop at the same time all over the world. It may surprise some people that as late as the mid-70s the US had very few original progressive rock bands that did not sound like exact copies of British bands. Journey was one of the first US bands to present a uniquely American brand of prog-rock before they eventually became a mainstream rock band. We have collaborators from all over the world who tell us which bands helped the progressive rock scene develop in their corner of the globe, even if those bands were like Journey and were known more for being mainstream rock bands.
Was he a
3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre.
Does he have an element of
4) Timeliness - Like many genres, prog-rock has had its ups and downs. In the late 70s and early 80s prog-rock was barely a blip on the radar. During this time artists such as David Bowie and Metallica released albums that captured key elements of the spirit of prog rock and did so while contributing their own original modern elements to the mix.
Is he an
5) Integral part of the prog-rock scene - Sometimes you just had to be a part of the scene during a certain time period to understand how some bands fit with the prog rock scene of their time. Although Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Wishbone Ash may seem like mere hard rock bands, in their time they stood apart from other hard rockers with their more serious lyrical content and more developed compositions. Put simply, in the early 70s every prog-rock record collector usually had full collections of all three of these artists. These three bands were very much part of the prog-rock scene without being total prog-rock bands them selves.
Was he
6) Influenced by progressive rock - From the late 60s till about 1976 the progressive tendency was in full effect in almost all genres of music. Once again, as we enter the second decade of the 21st century a melting pot of prog-metal, math-rock, progressive electronics and post-rock influences have once again made a progressive tendency in rock music almost more a norm than a difference. Yet in other periods of musical history receiving influence from progressive rock could really set a band apart and make them worthy of our prog-related category. Being influenced by progressive rock is hardly the only factor we look at, and in some periods of musical history it is almost meaningless, but still, it is almost a given that most of the artists listed in prog-related were influenced by the development of progressive rock.
And finally...
7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture. A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven', David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold the World' or Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Probably so.
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Posted: October 16 2011 at 16:12
akamaisondufromage wrote:
You don't necessarily have to be good to be 'Prog Related' you could (I guess) be rubbish prog! (Although some might say thats impossible).
It's not.
Re: Prog-Related, I think it's genuinely hard to point to any particular Tom Waits album and say "that's a rock album", let alone "that's a prog rock album". He's primarily a blues/jazz artist, so there's not much to get a grip on from a rock perspective. Say what you like about Blue Oyster Cult and Deep Purple, but they were rock bands and (in the case of the latter at least, I'm not all that clued up on BOC) they knew how to push the envelope when they felt like it, even if that wasn't all that often.
That Tom Waits was and remains a unique and experimental force within his genre is not in any doubt, but his relationship with progressive rock is tenuous at best.
I'm glad my previous post was helpful, by the way. Whatever it may seem like, we really do make informed choices when it comes to suggestions and try not to let personal taste cloud our judgement. I realise it's not always a very transparent process, but it's the best we can do.
You don't necessarily have to be good to be 'Prog Related' you could (I guess) be rubbish prog! (Although some might say thats impossible).
It's not.
Re: Prog-Related, I think it's genuinely hard to point to any particular Tom Waits album and say "that's a rock album", let alone "that's a prog rock album". He's primarily a blues/jazz artist, so there's not much to get a grip on from a rock perspective. Say what you like about Blue Oyster Cult and Deep Purple, but they were rock bands and (in the case of the latter at least, I'm not all that clued up on BOC) they knew how to push the envelope when they felt like it, even if that wasn't all that often.
That Tom Waits was and remains a unique and experimental force within his genre is not in any doubt, but his relationship with progressive rock is tenuous at best.
I'm glad my previous post was helpful, by the way. Whatever it may seem like, we really do make informed choices when it comes to suggestions and try not to let personal taste cloud our judgement. I realise it's not always a very transparent process, but it's the best we can do.
It´s the rock quotient that perhaps is missing. Just like Sun Ra or Stravinsky for that matter - progressive music doesn´t always contain rock.
BUT this is after all a prog rock resource.
BTW I have about 10 Tom Waits albums, and I love the guy and his wonderful ashtray voice.
Edited by Guldbamsen - October 16 2011 at 16:22
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Posted: October 16 2011 at 16:42
And finally...
7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture. A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven', David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold the World' or Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Probably so.
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Posted: October 16 2011 at 21:15
At some point I think we have to admit that much of the criteria we use is quite subjective, and bands are sometimes included/excluded because of people's strong feelings one way or another.
It seems to me that enough members feel strongly enough about Waits' inclusion that maybe he should be evaluated. I've certainly had to listen to less progressive stuff than Tom Waits and decide if the band is worthy.
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Posted: October 17 2011 at 02:42
I see both sides. No, he's not prog. But I think he prolly has influenced prog to a degree, as many prog artists will incorporate elements of avant-garde blues. Based on that fact, I think PR is a good fit. However, beaverteeth, you really oughta learn that you win more bees with honey than vinegar. I've had a buttcrapton of my suggestions here not get added and never once have I gotten this uppity about it.
@admins- Can we maybe separate RIO and Avant Prog now? They really don't have much to do with each other and it is confusing to have two unrelated genres under the same umbrella.
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Posted: October 17 2011 at 03:59
Deathrabbit wrote:
@admins- Can we maybe separate RIO and Avant Prog now? They really don't have much to do with each other and it is confusing to have two unrelated genres under the same umbrella.
I've been banging my head against that particular brick wall for years now. We drew up a list of artists to be moved into RIO (with the rest remaining in a slimmed-down avant-prog category), wrote separate genre definitions (which you can at least find on the genre page now) and got widespread support from many collaborators outside the team and then it all just ground to a halt, despite attempts to get the process moving again. It may still happen one day, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
For those of us who dip into these two sub-genres but are far from experts, any chance of the RIO/Avant team issuing a list of what you feel falls in which bucket? I'd certainly rather see separation for what it's worth, as well as the splitting of math and post rock, but I know others feel different. Thanks.
Two unrelated genres? let's look at the current genre definitions:
RIO/Avant-Prog definition
Avant-Prog
Avant-prog is an umbrella term which refers to
any progressive rock artist with a strong leaning towards avant-garde
and highly experimental approaches to music. Therefore, it includes the
sub-genres of Rock In Opposition (see below) and Zeuhl in addition to
general avant-prog artists.
Avant-prog is generally considered to
be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock,
though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation.
Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog
artists include:
- Regular use of dissonance and atonality. - Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements. - Free or experimental improvisation. - Fusion of disparate musical genres. - Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.
Most
avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and
consequently tend to resist easy comparisons. However, Frank Zappa is
often cited as a major influence on many avant-prog artists due to his
early adoption of avant-garde and experimental attitudes within a
predominantly rock/jazz context.
I'd be the first to admit that defining Avant-Prog would be a particularly difficult task. (Like nailing a jellyfish to the ceiling) but playing the devil's advocate, it's illustrative of these aforementioned problems that the relatively 'tame' and completely unrelated Crimson and Gentle Giant tick all 5 boxes. You believe that RIO should be separate from Avant-Prog yet would consider the latter is inclusive of any Progressive Rock artists with a strong leaning towards avant-garde
and highly experimental approaches to music. Were you to define the demarcating characteristics of RIO then perhaps more of us would be able to consider your idea's merit but there isn't even an attempt to define RIO but merely plot the time-lines of the bands you consider sufficiently exclusive from the all inclusive Avant-Prog to warrant an entire sub genre to themselves.
I don't pretend to know squat about the genre(s) but just from a logical perspective, this doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.
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Posted: October 17 2011 at 05:25
Evolver wrote:
At some point I think we have to admit that much of the criteria we use is quite subjective, and bands are sometimes included/excluded because of people's strong feelings one way or another.
It seems to me that enough members feel strongly enough about Waits' inclusion that maybe he should be evaluated. I've certainly had to listen to less progressive stuff than Tom Waits and decide if the band is worthy.
I agree, so we have a controversial artist that would require RIO/Avant evaluation. Whether he gets rejected out of hand is not the point, he deserves a fair evaluation by that team. And if that fails then the person motivating the inclusion can ask an Special Collab to put Waits to Admin for possible PR assessment...... sounds reasonable enough
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Posted: October 17 2011 at 08:29
ExittheLemming wrote:
I don't pretend to know squat about the genre(s) but just from a logical perspective, this doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.
Unrelated is more than a bit of a strech, but you can differentiate between the two, as RIO also applies to bands that were heavily influenced by the original RIO bands. I would consider RIO more "orchestral", while avant-prog is more closely tied to conventional song structures. Deathrabbit may not have written up anything, but bother one of the ZART people and they can give you a wall of text.
However, I would prefer we remove Zeuhl as a separate genre than make RIO a new one if we're trying to be more consistent.
Edited by Henry Plainview - October 17 2011 at 08:31
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Posted: October 17 2011 at 09:15
Henry Plainview wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
I don't pretend to know squat about the genre(s) but just from a logical perspective, this doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.
Unrelated is more than a bit of a strech, but you can differentiate between the two, as RIO also applies to bands that were heavily influenced by the original RIO bands. I would consider RIO more "orchestral", while avant-prog is more closely tied to conventional song structures. Deathrabbit may not have written up anything, but bother one of the ZART people and they can give you a wall of text.
However, I would prefer we remove Zeuhl as a separate genre than make RIO a new one if we're trying to be more consistent.
Unrelated might be a bit strongly worded, but there are still very stark contrasts in the two styles, and one has a temporal designation as well.
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Tom Waits for RIO
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beaverteeth92 wrote:
