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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Of course it can be broken down into pitch, timbre and dynamics but it hardly captures the variation in the mind of the listener. If a band that used to be folksy one day decides to get jazzy, the difference to their sound is a lot more than just changes in dynamics.
Correct, there is a dearth of imagination in a lot of music today and I can live with that. On the other hand, forcing myself today to enjoy the likes of Presto Ballet is far more difficult. I'd expect that cross fertilization produces more genres, new possibilities to blend genres would be thrown up but both bands as well as audiences have become conservative and cling onto a sound that they already like, barring a few exceptions of course. Edited by rogerthat - December 12 2011 at 19:25 |
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King Crimson776 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
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Well, yes, musical judgement is subjective and up to interpretation, and some might value that transition from folksy to jazzy... I don't see how opinions like this are relevant here though... (I feel I might be missing your point about "variation in the mind of the listener" though, maybe you can clarify)... But ignoring such "value-based" notions, differences in pitch, timbre etc. are objective, and the more music that is composed/recorded and released, the harder it becomes to compose something truly novel, in an objective sense. I think this inherently breeds a lack of inspiration, although I still like a few modern bands (guys like the Flower Kings and Porcupine Tree I can hardly even consider modern though since they've been around so long... (Roine Stolt actually being a part of the original Swedish prog scene). I feel like they are veterans who take certain contemporary influences with their styles they've honed over the years (mainly modern production values in TFK's case)... but I agree fully about the vast majority of actual "modern prog" and music in general, guys like Presto Ballet as you've mentioned, who started up fairly recently, I don't like at all).
Of course, don't force yourself to like anything... but with a different conception of music you may like things you had previously dismissed. As far as genres, they are just categories people can use to organize their thoughts on different sets of musical possibilities, it doesn't create "new possibilities" to conceptualize a composition as a "cross-fertilization" of somewhat arbitrary categories.
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I am not really looking for something original in a coldly objective sense. And that is the reason I was harping on presentation and creativity earlier. If you find a way to put a new spin on old wine, you are ok...that is at least my view. Sure, if you really break it down to the minute details and analyse every possible link to the past, you might conclude it is not all that original but if one has to do that to know where a band derives its inspiration from, it's already a winner.
But sometimes, it seems to me bands are so infatuated with the old wine they don't even want to apply a different twist to it. They are content to tell the same story the exact same way, more or less, again. It serves a purpose to the kind of listener who would, just for the sake of a change, listen to another band playing the same kind of music but I'd much rather pull out a well worn favourite for that purpose. If I am listening to a new studio album, I expect something different at some level, some measure of freshness. A band like ACT may not be startlingly original but they are at least fresh and have a different spin on prog metal while Circus Maximus are content to repeat the same lines we have heard ad nauseum from the days of Rainbow to DT. I don't really expect originality of a higher degree than that though Prasanna mixing Carnatic with Metheny is even more stimulating.
Not really...for example, Opeth popularised mixing of clean and harsh vocals as well as clean and distorted textures. It did spawn a wave of bands attempting the same thing. Some did it too obviously, too crudely and some a little better. Somewhere along the line, Opeth also joined the dots between their death metal roots and Akerfeldt's fondness for prog rock. And that is just off the top of my head, I don't even consider that such an amazing development, but it's an example of how, even within metal, music can still 'grow' if bands are prepared to experiment.
I have heard too many budding musicians however going around talking about how music should be such that "sounds good". IMO, that is already the wrong starting point and leads me to wonder if perhaps some of the bands that do make it and release albums don't have the same mindset. A truly open minded composer would say anything is possible and you don't really know if it sounds good or not until you try and take the plunge. One of my favourites remarked that even a dog's bark can be music and no, I am not talking about Pink Floyd!
Other than that, I think I have clarified above that I don't necessarily look for originality in such an empirical light. I look for an original experience more than anything else and I think there are enough combinations still available to artists to make something fresh and interesting...whether they want to anymore is another matter.
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King Crimson776 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
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Ok, I won't belabor it any further after this (at least for the rest of the year!). I wouldn't say I'm "breaking down every possible link to the past" (although I don't think this would be that hard of a thing to do, regardless of the artist)... just pointing out that, thinking of it in the broadest sense, all music is a combination of timbre/pitch/dynamics, and the general trend is that the variations of those elements get less and less novel over time etc... of course, some music is more original than other music, but I don't think you can always expect a "new twist" because these twists would necessarily constitute an objective (and significant) degree of musical difference.
I don't think Opeth are really thought of as "spawning a new genre"... but even if they were, that's just them exploring possibilities that were novel enough to inspire bands to make similar music, and so a new genre name is coined. Those musical possibilities existed regardless of what they would end up filed under. I agree that "sounding good" is a bad starting point in writing music (too generic, artists should have more of a specific vision), and I can understand the desire for "an original experience". I just think those experiences can't be inexhaustible, as every "twist" you may find in modern bands becomes increasingly minor... but I also think this doesn't have to matter, it's all in the way we conceive of music. Certain societies have a sustainable musical tradition which doesn't have an inherent need to do different things constantly. I'll say no more. Edited by King Crimson776 - December 13 2011 at 04:25 |
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Agreed that variations would get less novel over time but hopefully my illustrations of what I consider original modern prog suggest that I don't expect an unrealistic degree of originality. A term like new twist itself means different things to different people. Just the presence of a different singer is enough for some listeners, I need maybe a little bit more tinkering around but I would say it is mainly robotic imitation of well established norms of a genre that turn me off and not necessarily deriving some elements of a genre, which is frankly unavoidable.
Indeed, but there was nevertheless nothing quite like Opeth before them. That is still more desirable than faceless imitation.
In a strictly empirical sense, yes, but the catch is it's an uphill ride for a listener to get into all kinds of genres. I have limited exposure to electronic and minimalist music as of now and on listening to a bit of Terry Riley and Morton Feldman, found it very interesting. Wait, I don't even really know what style it slots into, so pardon any inaccuracy in my classification. But it was new for me and it is one more area I will explore. In this way, there is always too much music to keep up with for a listener. I guess some people would rather listen to a few genres because they love the sound of those and I'd rather listen to more kinds of music but take the better artists from those. Not to mention that in the meantime, I am not getting younger and can't explore more music at the same rate as before because hands are full with other things. I'd prefer to give new music my full attention at home rather than on the move, which is not always possible.
Well, our Indian classical music is pretty stodgy barring some innovators like Balamurali. It may be eminently suitable for its legions of fans but I have to say I take it in small doses. The generally stagnant nature of Indian music is one of the reasons I drifted to Western music because at least some Western artists, even if not the vast majority, understand the desire for change. In a roundabout way, I do agree that it is indeed about what we make of music but I think rock and prog were born out of a craving for change and not more 'stable' musical traditions. Perhaps, they have matured to the point where even they have become stable, I don't know.
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King Crimson776 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
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Yeah, I like listening from all genres too, and there is so much music out there I'll never run out. I'm mainly speaking of modern Western music and the future of it though. I personally think that future looks dim, and so I have some vague theories regarding a possible integration of certain Western and Eastern values; in which the progress of Western music and the stability of Eastern music (and both societies in general too) can be synthesized into a sort of Golden Middle. It's all very utopian and needs to be fleshed out though certainly.
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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lol, well, an Indian composer actually based his life's work on the above principle. Imbibing a Western approach to development with a strong sense of Indian melody to create music that was equally capable of being tranquil and beguiling as intense and purposeful. Unfortunately, his music was set to Tamil lyrics and because Hindi is the national language in India, he doesn't get his due. He is the composer whom I quoted above re dog's bark and I can safely say he opened my mind to Western ideas of music. This is the 'guy' I am talking about (over 60 plus now):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilayaraja I think songs like 'Love You To' suggest Beatles had similar ideas back in the mid 60s too. It has unfortunately not been built upon over the years. Understandably so, because it's a difficult middle to attain. It is melody that makes Indian music alluring in spite of its relative stability. I do not find Western melody so attractive and it is rather the underlying harmony that speaks to me much more. I cannot comment on other Eastern traditions with which my experience is either limited or null.
But barring any major new developments, I see the studio album becoming redundant and the live experience being the main means to access music. It is not altogether bad because the luxury of being able to listen to music over and over on record pampers us. So maybe if we had to attend a gig to experience new music, we would value it more. And since live puts a premium on performance rather than composition, it is also easier to justify playing highly derivative music so long as it is well performed.
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Not any more, but just wait a minute, yeah, now it is, oh no, it's gone again.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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groovedohg ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: December 21 2011 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Hey I have just this minute joined, and yes This one single question is in the same vein as "Is there a God?"
Prog is supposed to mean Progressive and in that sense it is supposed to be away from the norm and exploring new avenues. Some people will look at Prog with a cynical grin and quote the leading forefathers of the genre such as King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd etc. We will be reminded of the ridiculously long songs and let us not forget the Wizards, unicorns etc and THAT Cloak (Wakeman I refer) - I download a lot of Prog, but I have noticed that Progressive is used heavily in the Dance/House genre. There are some certain bands in the Neo-Prog genre which really inspire me (i.e. Airbag and Frost), but most of the genre infuriates me as they all sound so bland and remind me of those dreaded 80s prog bands (Sorry if I I have offended anyone - Just being honest) - Most Neo-Prog bands immediately point to bands such as IQ and Pallas, meaning they sound very similar with the swirling keyboards and the crystal clear vocals and the inspiring lyrics. I couldn't stand Pendragon's 80s and 90s output, but when Nick (Band leader) finally decided to PROGRESS from earlier material, he did it for his own sanity and there was the dreaded thought of the die-hard original fans being upset of the sudden change. "Pure", the album in question, acquired a new recruit in me and the follow up "Passion" was similar in style. The band became a lot heavier in the same way that Porcupine Tree escaped The pyschedelic and spacy sounds of the mid 90s before releasing their 2 most accessible albums (Stupid Dream and Lightbulb Sun) before bringing in a heavier sound for "In Absentia" and the following albums. I have noticed that some top name Prog bands will release a trilogy of albums that are not too far away in terms of style of music. The most recent band I can think of is a favourite of mine in Riverside from Poland. Is this progressing? To be honest, I don't really care. I loved all of their first three albums, and I am so aware that Riverside could do a totally different progressive album, and in fact, they kind of already have. Well, their Singer Mariusz Duda released the beautiful albums that are in the form of Lunatic Soul. Steve Wilson is another who can completely progress to one extreme of music to another, but what are the chances of Porcupine Tree releasing a Bass Communion album, or releasing a full length album withTim Bowness handling all the vocals. Ugh!! That would be dreadful, but it would probably be considered Progressive too.Many fans would walk away disappointed. Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon (A Masterpiece of course) was followed up by the equally impressive Wish you were here. If you release an album that is so special and appealing, it is logical and common sense to release a follow-up in the same frame of mind but adding extra special appeal to satisfy the current fan and at the same time to try and expand.. Prog Music should not mean having to change for the sake of it. OK, Pop music and X Factor stuff will always rely on Cuteness, cheesy lyrics and monotonous rhythms that appeal mostly to teenage girls and younger hence it will never be involved with Prog. To be honest, I think that too much is made of the word Prog, and it should just be treated in the same way as the term "Rock" We only have to look at the term Metal in the days of Black Sabbath to Judas Priest etc (Bands I grew up with). BUT when Thrash metal, Speed, Doom etc came along around in the 1980s, I would not claim to liking the term Heavy Metal, and was more comfortable (And still am) with the term Hard Rock. In the 70s, I couldn't really differentiate between Heavy Metal and Hard Rock as it was all the same in the early days. To sum it all up, when I was a teenager in the 70s, my all-time favourite Rock band was Status Quo, who were regarded as a Progressive band. Well, they had progressed from a horrible Flower Power Pop sound of the 60s. During the 70s, they kept their sound to a stable 12 bar blues boogie sound which the fans loved. However, when the band started to lose original members, and with the release of a completely different type of album (In the Army Now) I lost faith in the band forevernore, although they will always hold a special place in my heart for my early upbringing. Prog is no longer reliant on 15 minute plus songs (Although it still frequents), or songs of serpents etc, and most intriguingly too, does not have to have mellotrons, keyboards etc which determined the 70s Prog sounds of Genesis,Floyd,Yes etc etc. When you look at it, Prog appeals to 40-60 year olds as well as the 18-25 year olds. It caters for Hard Rock, Jazz, Blues as well. Its good at least that we are now more using the term Prog Rock as opposedf to Progressive Rock. To finalise, Prog now has many sub-genres i.e. Crossover, Symphonic, Eclectic, Experimental-Post Metal, Symphonic, Prog Metal, Prog Folk, Heavy Prog, Neo Prog, Pyschedelic, Canterbury etc etc. I only heard of most of these terms within the past eight or so years. Dream Theater, a Prog Metal band, are always going to sound like Dream Theater otherwise they will lose many fans. They will always be a Prog Metal Band, so for them to progress, should they re-invent their sound to be a Crossover Prog band? Of Course not. Prog is only a word, and that word just includes many of our favourite bands. Prog fans can get so wound up about issues such as this whereas Metal fans dont give a feck.
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BrufordFreak ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 25 2008 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 8631 |
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Grreat list! Concur wholeheartedly! There's so much great new music out there! Especially in 2011! Try Sunhillow's progstreaming.com for familiarizing yourself with some new bands--for FREE!! |
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
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groovedohg ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: December 21 2011 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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I came across this Prog band from China recently (i.e. Rainbow Danger Club) - I was quite taken aback by its Westernisation (If there is such a word LOL) - I am sure many people will familiarise with many Japanese bands, German too, at times, with the strong accents which we normally immediately identify with. It was my first example of Prog from China. There was no evidence of eastern instrumentation, just guitars,bass, drums, keyboards, vocals. I was only discussing with a friend today the chances of coming across a Prog band from India, Iraq, Fiji, Cameroon etc etc. I am sure thats where the music will become progressive to the point of definition, BUT it will probably kill the genre again if it was to become the in thing. Although Prog started in England, and it possesses top league bands such as Porcupine Tree, it is places like Poland and Norway that continually churn out top quality Progressive Rock off the conveyor belt.C heck out Polands "Tales of Diffusion" for starters. Not normally my style of Prog, and with plentiful supply of trumpet solos, and little in the vocals department, but it kept you interested and not wanting to skip to a new track.
I have recently assumed that you either come from the Pink Floyd tree (Pyschedelic) or the Genesis tree (Symphonic) as an example. Fans who like Pink Floyd will like Porcupine Tree, Riverside, RPWL, Supercomet, Airbag etc because the music at times sounds like Pink Floyd at times. As with Genesis, there are the IQs, Marillion, Pallas etc where influences come to the fore. However, Pink Floyd have had their time, and today there are many great tribute bands that play the music of Pink Floyd miles better than the classic line up (RIP Rick Wright). What happens today when legends like Floyd try to progress? They, well, Dave Gilmour anyway, will release albums with bands like The Orb, which go into obscurity overnight. The so called legendary bands cannot progress anymore. They will maybe release a new track or two to satisfy the fans, but it is always the case of GOING BACK to their heyday and playing the favourites. As I mentioned in my previous post, some Prog bands release trilogies of albums that sound the same before exploring new structures. The question is, how many albums can a Progressive band produce before it does not progress anymore, but just gets to the stage of just being another Rock album.
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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When it is it is when it isn't is isn't. See there, that didn't take so many words or too much thought.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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KABSA ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 09 2010 Location: midlands Status: Offline Points: 154 |
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Classic Era Prog :
The sound formed from Blues Rock, Freak Beat, Classical & Folk sources. The relative primitivism of the 1) instruments 2) Studio eqipment and the Engineers & 3) the pressing plants resulted in a sound that [despite the moog synths etc] was more 'natural' and ?organic. But of course had what we refer to as an identifiable Melody and Hook [a lot of the time]. Present Prog : arising out from the various styles of Indie Rock, and post Rave/Techno era., and not forgetting the bands who were styled as Neo-Psyche., along with the Advanced Quality of Music Production., has resulted in a Prog Sound distinct from the original Forms. The sound being more Generic., very sophisticated and more Polished. But seemingly owning less Melodic content, and without the necessary Hooks. And. To note: There are many More bands now practising the style, than ever before. So finding the Nuggets is moreso awkward [that suits your own tastes] and requires sites such as ProgArchives to give some Direction. Along with the myriad Blogs about etc. So : Prog has Progressed. Whether you like the progression or not., whether you appreciate it, results in much dialogue.
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Tall Tales of Topographic Inconsequence
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Tapfret ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 12 2007 Location: Bryant, Wa Status: Offline Points: 8634 |
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This topic can still produce 7 pages? Amazing.
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lukeswagger ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Quote spammer Joined: December 22 2011 Location: mexico Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Should rock be considered prog just because it's technical?"
Is a question I, as a prog fan, ask myself every once in awhile. Seems that's really all prog tends to seem to be considered in this day, and age. Even if early precursors like Pink Floyd weren't necessarily. However, it makes one wonder, what exactly makes a band like Dream Theather or Coheed and Cambria really prog? They both profit heavily from assembling extensively established pieces of music, and simply enhancing the solos. Then again, if that's the case, why isn't Megadeth prog? Or why is it when the formula is truly bent in a non-rock direction are things labelled as Avant-garde? I mean would say, Mr.Bungle, be considered a prog band in the 70s even if considered an avant-garde band of today? Mixing Jazz, Carnival, rock, etc has been predominately territory of bands like King Crimson since their inception. What exactly happened in the 80s that has earned this distinct segregation? Does the fact that something like David Bowie even bar itself from being prog just because of simple structures even if there's often an extensive usage of atypical not typically instrumentation, and studio technique? Christ... I'm getting too Socratic. At any rate, my point is, it was my understanding that prog was intended to be rock breaking into more sophisticated realms. Often utilizing elements of it's sister jazz-fusion and classical(which technically had an affair with classical since it's start). Why is it it seems that things are considered prog just because they are technical even if they bear traits of little to no experimentation? I mean, what distinctly makes something progressive is prog rock is no longer allowed it's license to take risks? |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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What?
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