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OT Räihälä View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2012 at 12:34
Originally posted by tdfloyd tdfloyd wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

After losing interest in prog where should you go?  Classical and contemporary prog?  Contemporary,  Classical, Jazz??   Metal??? Country and Western??

Classical.  I kind of left prog for a couple of months now and I'm listening to mainly to classical.  Its mostly new to me, kind of like prog was 30 years ago.  Of course I'll come back to it in the future

I'd also recommend classical, because it can/should then lead to other genres like contemporary art music and jazz. After that you can take turns with anything you like, and even prog could taste better again.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2012 at 11:24
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

After losing interest in prog where should you go?  Classical and contemporary prog?  Contemporary,  Classical, Jazz??   Metal??? Country and Western??

Classical.  I kind of left prog for a couple of months now and I'm listening to mainly to classical.  Its mostly new to me, kind of like prog was 30 years ago.  Of course I'll come back to it in the future


Edited by tdfloyd - January 08 2012 at 11:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 21:26
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

After losing interest in prog where should you go?  Classical and contemporary prog?  Contemporary,  Classical, Jazz??   Metal??? Country and Western??


I know, one of the more amusing sub-genres out there - crunk-screamo. Bizarre and fascinating. I actually want to hear it, but I don't think I'll end up liking it

http://www.smnnews.com/2009/05/14/crunk-screamo-band-so-bad-that-even-emo-kids-are-boycotting-them/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 20:25
After losing interest in prog where should you go?  Classical and contemporary prog?  Contemporary,  Classical, Jazz??   Metal??? Country and Western??
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 20:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by KingCrimson250 KingCrimson250 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

jazz isn't treated as an exclusive club.  

Oh boy. If only you knew, heh.* Some Jazzers make your average Progger look positively open-minded. "Jazz died after 1959" "Jazz died after 1949" "Jazz died with Bird" "Jazz died with the Duke" etc etc.


The funny thing about music is how much things change. New advances in jazz that were widely panned by critics at the time (Bitches Brew, anyone?) are now hailed by most jazz critics as being essential listening. I wonder how things will look to prog fans 20 years down the road from now, how differently they'll see things.


*I realize this might seem a bit patronizing and maybe condescending, but it isn't meant to be.
Actually I was referring to over at JMA. Wink

Boy is my face red. Heh.


Back to the topic, I think we're a bit unfair to prog sometimes too, in the sense that I think we're a bit too liberal with our use of words like "rip-off." When we say that a band like Glass Hammer sounds like Yes, for example, we're talking about general aesthetic similarities. You wouldn't say that in the same way you might say "Nickleback sounds like Creed," for instance. A broad similarity might be there, but the actual compositions themselves have never been done by anyone else. I like to think that it's not always re-hashing the same old ground but acting within the boundaries that other bands have established and trying to flesh things out a bit. Some bands are pioneers, and some are colonizers. I love innovative music as much as the next guy, but I think there is a place for the band that takes someone else's sound and builds on it.


If we were to apply our standards to rock outside of the prog sphere, we'd have to say that they all sound the same. All grunge sounds the same, all punk sounds the same, etc.


Oh, wait. We do say that. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 11:15
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Jazz and classical music  are much more interesting, in my opinion.. There is so much music to discover which expands my mind more than prog
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

so-called "new" prog albums which are more or less just an endless repetition of what has already been said.

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I hate the way albums are being produced these days; they all sound extremely sterile. Each instrument clearly separated from the other. 
 
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

It does not bring anything better across if all instruments are strictly separated; it just sounds more sterile.
 
Too generalizing. "Endless repetition of what has already been said"? Well, that goes for most jazz too. Most jazz is just too boring for me. Structurally it is often similar, and all those solo parts is boring, especially acoustic bass solos. Who likes an acoustic bass solo? A lot of jazz seems like just a game for the musicians. You keep track of the chord structure and play many notes within scales. Jazz is boring!
 
Regarding instruments separated from each other... well that recording tecnique was very common in the seventies too. Sometimes it can be a bad thing, sometimes not. For example, I don't like the sound of the drums on Camels Moonmadness, as well as Nude. The drums are probably recorded in a very small room with no room ambience. Mirage sound way better. A lot of music involving studio musicians at the end of the 70s and beginning of the 80s also had a more or less stiffness to it were the instruments sound separated. Steely Dan is just an example. It can be too clinical. Today the sound is generally more crisp and clear. But you can record in any way you want.
 
But I mean, there are examples of good music which is recorded one instrument at a time, and still can sound very nice, without being too clinical. But recording live without metronome click is probably an undervalued and underestimated way. It is harder and more difficult to edit afterwards though, cutting up and modifying things.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 09:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

That's interesting I never heard that The Police cited Genesis as an influence. 


I never heard that either.
Is it not the other way around? '80's Genesis (well, Collins ) being inspired by The Police?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 07:23
That's interesting I never heard that The Police cited Genesis as an influence.  That might explain why I eventually got into them.  That and the Summers/Fripp I Advanced Masked album.


Edited by Slartibartfast - January 07 2012 at 07:23
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 06:28
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


I think my point is, that if someone said to me today you've got to
check this band out, they sound like Genesis, or whoever, I wouldn't
feel compelled to investigate.
Sometimes you have to have a point of reference.  There is a qualitative difference from saying that some artists sound like Genesis and saying that they sound exactly like Genesis.  That would be The Musical Box.




Yes, but the Musical Box is a Genesis tribute act, so the whole point is to sound 'just like' Genesis. I would go and see the MB, because Genesis don't exist as a recording/touring band right now, possibly never again, and the MB give the opportunity to hear that music played live, and authentically.

You're right, in that there are degrees of 'sounding like' someone else, but there is also a difference between 'sounding like' and being influenced by. Many 80's pop groups were influenced by late 70's/early 80's Genesis. I know for a fact that Go West, Simple Minds and the Police have all cited Genesis as an influence, in interviews in pop mags at the time, but generally sounded nothing like them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 02:59
I think an ebbing and flowing and ever-changing view towards music is a reflection of a progressive mind, regardless of whether or not the opinion stated is necessarily accurate to any degree.

I listen to so much "crap" that's not prog by any of the increasingly numerous definitions and pigeonholes, that I have a great balance of things that move me. I feel that if I find myself locked in to one particular genre or style in any majority sense, I'd have to turn in my prog card.

Take a break from what you feel is "sterile" and "spineless" and boring and whatever else and find what hits your guts. Eventually it all flows back into your brain anyway. Smile

The overarching factor is diversity itself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 17:17
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:



I think my point is, that if someone said to me today you've got to check this band out, they sound like Genesis, or whoever, I wouldn't feel compelled to investigate.

Sometimes you have to have a point of reference.  There is a qualitative difference from saying that some artists sound like Genesis and saying that they sound exactly like Genesis.  That would be The Musical Box.


Edited by Slartibartfast - January 06 2012 at 17:17
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 16:51
^ You could say that Prog was identifiable through certain song structures, which is the key thing, I think...... the sudden changes of key or time signatures rather than modulating gradually. But progressive itself is an approach, not a style, so you're correct that we can't pinpoint any actual features. 'Prog' has come to mean certain things though.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 16:42
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

 

It's funny people feel like this. If we were Blues fans we would expect to hear blues from a new blues band. From Spocks Beard i hear Prog. Which sounds like Spocks Beard and no one else.


It's a compelling idea Snowie but flawed: Blues played on say, Moogs and Mellotrons is still recognisable as blues because of the underlying structures i.e. basically I-IV-V (regardless of any number of elaborations on those pivotal chords) Prog is not identifiable from any such time honoured devices. Although you are certainly not guilty of this, there are many on PA who confuse texture with style e.g. if it's got a sax or an electric piano it's jazzy, if it's got a Moog it's proggy etcDead Brown Sugar features a brilliant sax solo (it ain't jazz) Crazy Horses features a Buchla Synth (it ain't prog)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 15:26
Originally posted by KingCrimson250 KingCrimson250 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

jazz isn't treated as an exclusive club.  

Oh boy. If only you knew, heh.* Some Jazzers make your average Progger look positively open-minded. "Jazz died after 1959" "Jazz died after 1949" "Jazz died with Bird" "Jazz died with the Duke" etc etc.


The funny thing about music is how much things change. New advances in jazz that were widely panned by critics at the time (Bitches Brew, anyone?) are now hailed by most jazz critics as being essential listening. I wonder how things will look to prog fans 20 years down the road from now, how differently they'll see things.


*I realize this might seem a bit patronizing and maybe condescending, but it isn't meant to be.
Actually I was referring to over at JMA. Wink
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 12:52
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

jazz isn't treated as an exclusive club.  

Oh boy. If only you knew, heh.* Some Jazzers make your average Progger look positively open-minded. "Jazz died after 1959" "Jazz died after 1949" "Jazz died with Bird" "Jazz died with the Duke" etc etc.


The funny thing about music is how much things change. New advances in jazz that were widely panned by critics at the time (Bitches Brew, anyone?) are now hailed by most jazz critics as being essential listening. I wonder how things will look to prog fans 20 years down the road from now, how differently they'll see things.


*I realize this might seem a bit patronizing and maybe condescending, but it isn't meant to be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 10:04
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:



I think my point is, that if someone said to me today you've got to check this band out, they sound like Genesis, or whoever, I wouldn't feel compelled to investigate.


Ditto.  If I wanted format music, I would get myself format music.  The whole reason I listen to prog is it doesn't - supposedly - impose on itself limitations the way format music does.  And at least format music that way is more easily digested for all its being derivative; I personally cannot listen to a 20 minute track defined entirely or at least mostly by the sound and style of 70s bands.  Take their compositional spirit by all means, but if even the tones are similar, I usually get bored.  So it's at some level also about whether you dig the very idea of prog being involved and twisted or listen to prog because it challenges the norm.  It's definitely the latter for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 08:51

If new bands want to emulate the old ones, which at least a few of them definitely do, then fine! It is correct to say that they aren't progressive in spirit, but I personally listen to music based on the sound, not the ethical system behind that music's creation. But of course, if all one wants from prog is "that proggy sound", then there is no better place to look than the classic era.

Blues fans, as Snow Dog said, expect blues. They don't expect anything new. Some prog fans expect more than a particular sound, they expect innovation as well. But prog and innovation don't always correlate, which I think is the reason why some people are bored with certain current prog bands.

My point, though, is that those classic-sound-emulating prog bands are doing nothing wrong.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 08:14
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


My tastes seem to cycle, but I've always come back to prog rock. That said, I've little interest in modern prog bands, who try to emulate classic prog bands. It just seems a little pointless tome, and not very 'progressive'

I don't agree modern prog bands try to emulate old prog bands. I think  they try to write good songs. But then, I don't know what bands you actually mean so difficult to comment.


Specifically the band I had in mind when I posted was Glass Hammer. I liked them for a while, but lost interest fairly quickly, when I realised that if I wanted music soaked in Moogs and Mellotrons there were far better classic bands who offer that. Also, the likes of Spocks Beard, Dream Theater and Citizen Cain, I find too derivative (that's not to say I've not appreciated them at times)

I think my point is, that if someone said to me today you've got to check this band out, they sound like Genesis, or whoever, I wouldn't feel compelled to investigate.

It's funny people feel like this. If we were Blues fans we would expect to hear blues from a new blues band. From Spocks Beard i hear Prog. Which sounds like Spocks Beard and no one else.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 08:06
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


My tastes seem to cycle, but I've always come back to prog rock. That said, I've little interest in modern prog bands, who try to emulate classic prog bands. It just seems a little pointless tome, and not very 'progressive'

I don't agree modern prog bands try to emulate old prog bands. I think  they try to write good songs. But then, I don't know what bands you actually mean so difficult to comment.


Specifically the band I had in mind when I posted was Glass Hammer. I liked them for a while, but lost interest fairly quickly, when I realised that if I wanted music soaked in Moogs and Mellotrons there were far better classic bands who offer that. Also, the likes of Spocks Beard, Dream Theater and Citizen Cain, I find too derivative (that's not to say I've not appreciated them at times)

I think my point is, that if someone said to me today you've got to check this band out, they sound like Genesis, or whoever, I wouldn't feel compelled to investigate.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 07:58
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:



My tastes seem to cycle, but I've always come back to prog rock. That said, I've little interest in modern prog bands, who try to emulate classic prog bands. It just seems a little pointless tome, and not very 'progressive'

I don't agree modern prog bands try to emulate old prog bands. I think  they try to write good songs. But then, I don't know what bands you actually mean so difficult to comment.
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