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Topic ClosedDo PA proggers have the right prog balance?
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Smurph View Drop Down
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Points: 3167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 16:04
A LOT of people think that Koenjihyyakei is way too friggin confusing and complex... BUT when I first listened to Angherr Shisspa I CRIED. It screams the sort of emotions that many artists are unable to do.
 
Art is subjective. Dark Side of the Moon sure sounds emotional and everything, but does it make me feel as much as some insanely complex music does sometimes? NO.
 
It's all opinion. If you love your prog one way then take it that way. I think I'm perfectly happy listening to Negura's Om and The Bedlam in Goliath. If that's just noise to you, then that's your loss because I FIND SO MUCH JOY IN THE INFINITE LAYERS OF COMPLEXITY THAT EXIST WITHIN MUSIC.
 
Anyone that can't absorb something like that makes me feel sorry for them.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 16:57
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Sorry, just looking for the bathroom.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 2542 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 17:17
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Well yes, it is weird for you to consider J-Tull.com a 5 star album, but if you think non-melodic music and improvisation is filler then you have a different perspective, which has nothing to do with "maturity". There is no such thing as the right prog balance.
 
That was a sympathy 5 star vote Tongue
Realistically the album is 5 songs too long to begin with, but it should have included the outtake instead. Would have been worthy of 4 stars then
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Points: 2542 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 17:29
I'm continually listening to an album such as Oblivion express Better land album. First I thought it wasn't as good as the debut album but now after half a dozen listens I'm rating it as an extremely good album. Tomorrows city and On thinking it over are excellent tracks. Great recording and a slightly better follow up to the very good debut. The rating of this album is a disgrace though. Then you look at Zappas 60s albums with double the ratings. I love Zappa but most of his pre 1972 are full of very amateur compositions imo. I guess it was the 60s and he was still learning though. But apart from Hot Rats, most of these early albums don't come close to 4 stars Angry
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 17:35
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Well yes, it is weird for you to consider J-Tull.com a 5 star album, but if you think non-melodic music and improvisation is filler then you have a different perspective, which has nothing to do with "maturity". There is no such thing as the right prog balance.
 
That was a sympathy 5 star vote Tongue
Realistically the album is 5 songs too long to begin with, but it should have included the outtake instead. Would have been worthy of 4 stars then


So you are saying you don't even think it's a 4* album?  You aren't supposed to scale votes just because you think an album is rated too low, that's called "rating manipulation"
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Points: 38985 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 17:41
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Well yes, it is weird for you to consider J-Tull.com a 5 star album, but if you think non-melodic music and improvisation is filler then you have a different perspective, which has nothing to do with "maturity". There is no such thing as the right prog balance.
 
That was a sympathy 5 star vote Tongue
Realistically the album is 5 songs too long to begin with, but it should have included the outtake instead. Would have been worthy of 4 stars then


So you are saying you don't even think it's a 4* album?  You aren't supposed to scale votes just because you think an album is rated too low, that's called "rating manipulation"


I remember this discussion: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68704&PID=4399668#4399668
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Points: 2542 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 17:43
Originally posted by ProgEpics ProgEpics wrote:

Gentle giant and jethro tull are the most over-rated bands on here imo, They are an example of being overly complex with nothing else to offer. Prog is not complex instrumental sections that go on and on..prog is supposed to be emotional. Dark side of the moon is not even close to being complex technically but it has so much emotion and great melody and jazzy chord arranging..The great albums are straight to the point and dont noodle around for 15 minutes, you need substance..quality over quantity.
 
Tull complex? LOL
Ian is a genius at producing melodies and compositions. Floyds never made upbeat material. They were never capable of it. Tull only went over the top on APP. I enjoy Floyd mostly from 1969-72. I love slow emotional prog too. One thing I don't like is overdramatic stuff though. As musicians and composers they were limited to the slower bluesy physchedlic stuff. DSOTM  is probably their weakest album between 1971 and 1980 imo. When it comes to prog instrumentals, Any colour you like would have to be at the lower end of the scale compared to 100s of instrumentals from all prog bands of the 70s. Just a bland composition. Money is pretty bland too. Good song at first listen. I find great gig in the sky ridiculously overdramatic. I want to slap the lady to shuddup Big smile
 
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 17:51
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Well yes, it is weird for you to consider J-Tull.com a 5 star album, but if you think non-melodic music and improvisation is filler then you have a different perspective, which has nothing to do with "maturity". There is no such thing as the right prog balance.
 
That was a sympathy 5 star vote Tongue
Realistically the album is 5 songs too long to begin with, but it should have included the outtake instead. Would have been worthy of 4 stars then


So you are saying you don't even think it's a 4* album?  You aren't supposed to scale votes just because you think an album is rated too low, that's called "rating manipulation"


I remember this discussion: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68704&PID=4399668#4399668


I somehow missed that one, but I definitely think more should be done to dissuade members from behavior like that.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 18:18
At least we now know he is using the epithet "doctor" as a transitive verb and not a noun. Stern Smile
What?
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Points: 26138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 18:20
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Points: 38985 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 18:34
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Points: 26138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 18:44
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 18:48

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 2542 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2012 at 22:36
Originally posted by irrelevant irrelevant wrote:

^True.

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Too often I'm finding the best composed albums here to be rated low and the least well composed albums rated high. Most of us like the same bands of the era between the late 60s and early 80s but do prog listeners continually choose the most experimental/least composed stuff over the most well composed? I've always believed the best music came from the best composers and the more great compositions you can put in an album the better. Experimenting is ok, but when it's long passages of non melodic music, I believe this is filler and proof the band lacks strong composition to fill an album. Experimenting and Improvising should be saved for concerts. Albums should be packed with genius Tongue. Do proggers listen to band catalogues extensively? Do they give all albums enough spins or do they buy so many albums from different bands than they don't get time to enjoy albums over many listens? I'm finding several albums by bands that rate low here to be close to the best albums. Full of quality compositions. Quality compositions will always come out on top. I'm past that overdone prog and fusion which tries to get over complex. Just sounds a bit of a mess. Or you get the amatuer composers who rely on technicality and experimenting. That doesn't go far with me either. It's time we all matured and gave the right albums the high ratings in here Big smile


Good composition is quite subjective I guess. I also guess you're using Larks' Tongues in Aspic as a main reference point behind your post (I remember you being confused about the praise it gets). But didn't you say you listened to that album in your car? I really don't think that's a good place to listen to that album considering the hugely varied dynamics in tracks. You need no (or almost no) background noise to listen to Larks' properly IMO. Maybe then, you'll change your mind once you can hear it properly, or not. (BTW I don't think the album is perfect as I do think it has its slight flaws). 

Anyway, I mostly agree with you that good composition always comes out on top, and yes some prog can be grating and seem badly composed, but some just need time and several listens. Different people will prefer different composition styles, I mean are any Behold... The Arctopus pieces well composed? (Sorry, this is after 1983). I think some are, but it helps looking at the full piece as well, and what may seem "least composed" may be the exact opposite. Whether it resonates well with you is the important thing. 

This rant probably makes no sense, and probably the reason I don't do it often. LOL 
 
I've played Larks in the car a few times. It's a good album of course but I could never give it the 5 star treatment it gets in here. I reckon there are plenty better releases back then. Plenty better composers. Heard the album plenty of times but there's just not much good composition in there apart from exiles and Saturday. Nice slow tracks. The Larks tracks have their moments, but if I want cool riff tracks I'd rather play some Sabbath. The last 7 minutes of the first Larks track is almost 7 minutes of silence imo. If there was some sort of melody it wouldn't be complete filler Big smile


Edited by dr prog - March 24 2012 at 22:39
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2012 at 01:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

At least we now know he is using the epithet "doctor" as a transitive verb and not a noun. Stern Smile


LOL
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Points: 452 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2012 at 01:29
I found the opening post complex and experimental and feel bewildered as to why I read on.

But I enjoyed it.
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Points: 1321 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2012 at 03:54
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by ProgEpics ProgEpics wrote:

Gentle giant and jethro tull are the most over-rated bands on here imo, They are an example of being overly complex with nothing else to offer. Prog is not complex instrumental sections that go on and on..prog is supposed to be emotional. Dark side of the moon is not even close to being complex technically but it has so much emotion and great melody and jazzy chord arranging..The great albums are straight to the point and dont noodle around for 15 minutes, you need substance..quality over quantity.
 
Tull complex? LOL
Ian is a genius at producing melodies and compositions. Floyds never made upbeat material. They were never capable of it. Tull only went over the top on APP. I enjoy Floyd mostly from 1969-72. I love slow emotional prog too. One thing I don't like is overdramatic stuff though. As musicians and composers they were limited to the slower bluesy physchedlic stuff. DSOTM  is probably their weakest album between 1971 and 1980 imo. When it comes to prog instrumentals, Any colour you like would have to be at the lower end of the scale compared to 100s of instrumentals from all prog bands of the 70s. Just a bland composition. Money is pretty bland too. Good song at first listen. I find great gig in the sky ridiculously overdramatic. I want to slap the lady to shuddup Big smile
 

Grrrrr look at my unpopular opinions! How cool and different am I guys, right? RIGHT?
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2012 at 04:46
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

The last 7 minutes of the first Larks track is almost 7 minutes of silence imo. If there was some sort of melody it wouldn't be complete filler Big smile


A soft violin track resolves, gradually building tension until it explodes into a massive riff.  Where exactly did you hear silence in there?  Fripp's approach is to build unbelievable amounts of tension, usually exploding in a cathartic climax.  Of course, to appreciate such an approach, one has to feel the music instead of merely looking for a conventional idea of melody and composition.  Your comments on some tracks of DSOTM don't suggest that you are very much into the former. 
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Points: 1885 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2012 at 05:11
 
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

The last 7 minutes of the first Larks track is almost 7 minutes of silence imo
 
 
<--- try it, please
 
 
 
      p.s.:
      Do you like "Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast"?



Edited by progresssaurus - March 25 2012 at 05:50
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