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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2012 at 05:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying
Where are these top 10 lists?

he is refering to those lists you see  in top tens in the forum. For example there  is a top ten progressive metal one.



Edited by Snow Dog - May 19 2012 at 05:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2012 at 05:44
I don't have a problem with people reviewing albums they don't like, though I do struggle to understand the masochism necessary to rate and review several albums from subgenres they clearly either don't like or don't appreciate. Often a negative review can point out the flaws in an album that the tru-fans conveniently overlook when praising it, as always it is necessary to filter out some of the rhetoric and hyperbole to glean something of value from any review. I don't have to agree with the review to do that, I just need to recognise an honest opinion when I see it.
 
motW are not a Progressive Metal band so reviewing them from that perspective is bound to be negative, especially if the reviewer has no affinity with (or appreciation/understanding of) Avant Garde Metal, Post Metal or Post Rock. and that is never going to be vanilla Progressive Metal which is why we have them in Experimental/Post Metal and not in Progressive Metal.
 
Geoff spends most his review setting out his CV as an expert on Progressive Metal, (I attended the last ProgPowerUK festival and would have gone to more if they had continued - alas they did not, and I also hover over vendor stalls at these events looking for that special release that I've somehow managed to miss, but none of that makes me an expert, just another fan dressed in black with more Prog and Prog Metal CDs than have room to store), but  he doesn't make any distinction between the whole vista of metal artists that fall under the umbrella of metal bands that are progressive in nature - between the (let's call it Traditional) Progressive Metal of Dream Theatre and Ayreon, the Post Metal of Alcest or Neurosis, or the Extreme Metal of Edge of Sanity or Opeth. Being a self-proclaimed expert on (Traditional) Progressive Metal does not imply expertise in other subgenres however closely related they may be. And that for me negates the whole validity of the two sentences that actually talk about the album being reviewed.
 
The other issue is of course how subjectivity is used, and in this case how relativity is used. It is fine to have an opinion however positive or negative that opinion is, it is another thing to openly question everyone else's subjective opinion in a review and make that out to be the result of some kind of peer pressure, which is really just accusing all the other people who reviewed the album of being disingenuous.
 
Technically this review fails the Prog Archives Review Guidelines, while it does not directly criticise individuals or question genre placement, it does by general implication.
 
What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2012 at 05:35
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I do it sometimes. I think that if somebody likes something there may be a reason and I could be the wrong one.
Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not, but when I approach an album outside of my fav genre in general it's an opportunity.

When I have joined the site I was sure that Prog Folk and Symphonic where my pot but currently I'm totally into Progressive Electronic and Zeuhl !!
 
 
You misunderstood me. I certainly go out listen to albums which do not belong to my favourite styles but are praised by connoisseurs of that kind of music and i encourage doing so, I have also discovered a lot of great music in this way and it has diversified my tastes which is great.
 
I meant that as long as long as you didn't get to grips yet with anything in that style and you simply don't like it, what's the point in reviewing albums from that style, just to say "well guys I do not like this kind of music so I find nothing worth in this album".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2012 at 05:01
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...
Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL



Reading my reply back, I may have come across a tad too snotty and I apologise for that, but you did use nearly two thirds of your review speaking about how much you are into metal and by now are quite the connoisseur. Hell I talk about the most silly of things whenever I review music, but I always have the album at hand in my thoughts, because generally speaking that's where the inspiration came from. I maybe wrong in your case, but it just seemed like your expectations weren't met because you were counting on it to be metal. I am actually not the biggest fan of this album too, maybe would have given it a 3, but no matter the genre, it still is what it is, and any misconceptions about what one encounters musically in a given album will always be on account of one's own mistakes.
Plus I was mostly laughing at Rob's way of highlighting the review actually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2012 at 04:55
I do it sometimes. I think that if somebody likes something there may be a reason and I could be the wrong one.
Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not, but when I approach an album outside of my fav genre in general it's an opportunity.

When I have joined the site I was sure that Prog Folk and Symphonic where my pot but currently I'm totally into Progressive Electronic and Zeuhl !!
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2012 at 04:43
This brings back an old discussion: should people review albums belonging to a style they inherently don't like?
 
Even if the album is highly praised by fans of that particular style, if the reviewer simply does not like that style at all he will likely not be able to review it objectively enough (a separate discussion has been going on about objectivity / subjectivity) and he will most likely rate it low by definition.
With a bit of luck he will be clear enough to explain that the main reason he does not like the album is because he just does not like that kind of music, so probably that particular review will not be much different from any review he might do on any other album of that style.
 
I understand that everybody has the right to give his opinion about every album on the site but I wonder what's the value of such reviews. Well yes, they give another point of view and can help some people put things in perspective, but not much more than that.
 
I'm not a fan of Post Rock, from motW l have Bath, Leaving Your Body Map and Part the Second, and this last one is by far my favourite, honestly I don't fancy much Bath nor LYBM but PtS is a very good album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2012 at 19:38
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying
Where are these top 10 lists?
What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2012 at 19:24
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...

Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL


I'm not criticizing your rating.  Your rating and reason for it are fine- it bored you.  It's just that you clearly expected something more traditionally prog metal, at least as far as your review sounded.  I imagine that if the album had been labeled symphonic or RIO/Avant, you might not have reviewed it at all (or not reviewed it in the same fashion).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2012 at 19:11
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...

Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2012 at 19:00
Oh for crying out loud...
What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2012 at 18:46
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Maybe if Geoff had read some of those five star reviews, he would know the album he reviewed isn't progressive metal.  Ermm 

Holy sh... ... that's a lot of 5's.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 18 2012 at 18:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2012 at 18:45
But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2012 at 18:39
Maybe if Geoff had read some of those five star reviews, he would know the album he reviewed isn't progressive metal.  Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 00:35
^ I mean, if there is a prog reviewer who forgets an ingredient or two that make his review sound much better? You know what, it's no big deal. Don't worry about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colorofmoney91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 22:36
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by colorofmoney91 colorofmoney91 wrote:

... who have already been given the title of prog reviewer...

A new piece of information. But isn't there a chance of some of them losing it a bit Wink ?

I have no idea what you mean :\
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 22:30
Wow.  Embarrassed

A sincere thanks all, I really appreciate the kind words.  It's been a fun 5 years with all you guys!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evolver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 18:04
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I too love Jim's reviews- very eloquent and informational.
 
I agree. His were some of the reviews that inspired me to write some. (Oh great.  Now you guys will hate him)
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 17:58
I too love Jim's reviews- very eloquent and informational.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 17:35
Originally posted by colorofmoney91 colorofmoney91 wrote:

... who have already been given the title of prog reviewer...

A new piece of information. But isn't there a chance of some of them losing it a bit Wink ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colorofmoney91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 15:03
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I know there are 144 pages on this thread, and it might have been discussed before, but, as a reminder for everyone, ...

what constitutes a good review on this website?

The best way for me to answer that would be to tell you to read the recent reviews of people who have already been given the title of prog reviewer. From that, you could come up with your own personal decision on what constitutes a good review.
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