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cstack3 
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 Posted: September 12 2012 at 17:08 |
 jokrs2 wrote:
If I'm not mistaken Dave Stewart played keyboards for National Health, Hatfield & The North, Egg, and various side projects with people like Bill Bruford. That might be a good comparison. Listen to the synth on Hells Bells off of Brufords "One of a Kind". If you can tell whether it's a Minimonsta(Minimoog on steroids(computer to midi fatar), Memorymoog or any of the various others plus modular versions, then I wopuld consider you an expert between the 2 (Analog vs digital). I have a Roland Juno G, Roland Sh-01 GAIA, Alesis Micron, Korg Microkorg and the Minimonsta. Being an ex sound technician for Tapco/Mackie and having had a huge modular (analog synth)PAIA w/7 oscillators, 5 vcf's, etc. It all had to be externally patched from 1 module to the next. (best way to learn signal flow imho)
The major differences between synthesizer makers and their "sound" is in the types of filters. An average synth player can take an older analog alot of places, but the polyphony that creates the much more lush sounds on the digitals......I personally prefer. I love my GAIA. |
NICE collection!! Welcome aboard! Great post & an excellent contribution to the forum! 
Do you have any experience with the synths from Nord? We have a local Chicago band, "Kick the Cat," and they channel Brand X beautifully! The keyboard player gets some really classic sounds from his Nord keyboard (and it just looks neat!).
I was a big fan of the Prophet 5 synth back in the late 1970's era, they really had a great, fat square-wave tone!
Visit often! I'm a keyboard-challenged bassist/guitarist! Cheers, Charles
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jokrs2
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Posted: September 12 2012 at 18:00 |
Nice to speak with you Charles. Thank you for the kind words. I actually downsized my system and gave a whole computer loaded with the ARP AXXE/ w sequencer and an Oberheim OB-12 and an old Concertmate w/moog filters to a niece. Now I don't need a whole extra bedroom just for my studio One of my favorite keyboardists, Tomas Bodin, I know really likes the Nord and it's organ emulation, and a guy and his band that I recently partied with (Ed & Brandi Wynne)Ozric Tentacles really love the Novations. Wish I could buy them all but I only have a certain amount of sequencers and arpegiators available for fingers as it is. I would like to have a Nord. 
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cstack3
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Posted: September 12 2012 at 22:58 |
jokrs2 wrote:
Nice to speak with you Charles. Thank you for the kind words. I actually downsized my system and gave a whole computer loaded with the ARP AXXE/ w sequencer and an Oberheim OB-12 and an old Concertmate w/moog filters to a niece. Now I don't need a whole extra bedroom just for my studio One of my favorite keyboardists, Tomas Bodin, I know really likes the Nord and it's organ emulation, and a guy and his band that I recently partied with (Ed & Brandi Wynne)Ozric Tentacles really love the Novations. Wish I could buy them all but I only have a certain amount of sequencers and arpegiators available for fingers as it is. I would like to have a Nord. |
Hah! I have a spare bedroom jammed full of my guitars, basses & amps! 1973 Les Paul, 1977 Rickenbacker Bass, fretless Manson bass (in my icon, it was handmade by Hugh Manson, luthier to Steve Howe, Martin Barre & John Paul Jones), etc. etc.
We collect the stuff like lint over the years, don't we? I've given some things away to the youngsters & will continue to do so!
About all I'm good for on keyboards is leaning on major & minor chords....with a proper Mellotron sample, it isn't too bad! I have friends who tinkle the keys much better & leave that to them! Someday I'll have to post some sound samples, never have gotten around to it! Cheers!
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Josef_K
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Posted: September 13 2012 at 09:37 |
I've played the Roland SH-01 GAIA a few times and was astonished by how great the oscillators sounded with that price tag. However, the filter scared me off from buying that. Now, I've decided I can't handle the logistics of a third keyboard so won't buy anything, but I still consider the filter to be the main reason why analog is better than VA and digital. Software emulations are great, except they lack feeling imo.
Anyway, sometimes one might be better off getting more effects to the sounds already available. Imagine a clavinet or organ through this beauty for example... http://www.youtube.com/embed/NRtm8GaarLA
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Leave the past to burn,
At least that's been his own
- Peter Hammill
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jokrs2
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Posted: September 13 2012 at 13:44 |
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Hey Josef,
I remember when we started putting synth modules side by side by side...etc., and with the first Oberheims we had to tune each module's oscillators to mid c,(we made 4 voice and 8 voice) and of course I know that this was in the early stages of polyphony. If I were to defend the filter set-up, I would first say that it is very sensative and can be controlled from the LFO section as well, which can create some amazing sounds coupled with the complete effects section. I just think that the SH-01 is a synth that can't be played a few times when there are infinite sound possibilities >setting different arpegiators for each stacked oscillator with completely different effects and then setting the "hold note", while selecting another arpegiator to set up all the rest in a unit that size for that price....you're right price wise.
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: September 13 2012 at 13:52 |
Not to get off topic but one of Emerson's heavily damaged moogs was in a Hard Rock Café and it was cordended off with a sign saying DO NOT TOUCH. I had to touch it. I felt like I touched GOD.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: September 13 2012 at 15:30 |
cstack3 wrote:
Hah! I have a spare bedroom jammed full of my guitars, basses & amps! 1973 Les Paul, 1977 Rickenbacker Bass, fretless Manson bass (in my icon, it was handmade by Hugh Manson, luthier to Steve Howe, Martin Barre & John Paul Jones), etc. etc. |
Dude, that sounds like a music room to me.   Do analog synths sound dated? Well, I'm sure someone has taken a few of them out on occasion. Actually the short and most valid answer is another question - so what?
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 13 2012 at 15:32
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Josef_K
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Posted: September 13 2012 at 17:56 |
jokrs2 wrote:
Hey Josef,
I remember when we started putting synth modules side by side by side...etc., and with the first Oberheims we had to tune each module's oscillators to mid c,(we made 4 voice and 8 voice) and of course I know that this was in the early stages of polyphony. If I were to defend the filter set-up, I would first say that it is very sensative and can be controlled from the LFO section as well, which can create some amazing sounds coupled with the complete effects section. I just think that the SH-01 is a synth that can't be played a few times when there are infinite sound possibilities >setting different arpegiators for each stacked oscillator with completely different effects and then setting the "hold note", while selecting another arpegiator to set up all the rest in a unit that size for that price....you're right price wise. |
Of course the SH-01 has many possibilities, it's just that I need to be able to just hold a note and open the filter with some resonance and feel a shiver being sent down my spine. That's a synth to me, internal effects etc are great but if you don't have THAT feeling in the very basic functions it's nothing for me. So yeah, as you might have guessed already I'm quite happy with my Moog Little Phatty, even though it's monophonic of course. Depends on what you need, if you really need synth pads and you're on a budget, one cannot have my demands on the filter ^^
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Leave the past to burn,
At least that's been his own
- Peter Hammill
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moshkito
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Posted: September 22 2012 at 13:37 |
Hi, Cstack ... one thing to remember that I would imagine needs to be clarified, is HOW these synthesizers were used. In those days, the "foreign sounds" helped create a "new instrument" that could be used that was different than any other instrument out there ... and that made it nice and different. Today, the "analog" sound is almost non-existant and most bands with keyboards are merely playing the role of orchestra (at times) or simply soloing another instrument (ie organ, harpsichord, etc) that does not need to be blogged into the stage! I wonder if folks think that those solos, even by Keith on the moogs, were just ... another violin, or piano for him, which they might have been, but they had a completely different sound ... that made his work that much more lively! So we say that "analog sound" was good! So if we hear Jordan Rudess do something similar today on his little Apple computer, we're not gonna call it "analog" at all ... and it is the "same sound". It's weird seeing this discussion ... it's like saying that the violin sound is dated ... or the harpsichord, or the piano ... and I really think that is a discussion that is not going to get anywhere. People will always use "funny words" to describe a feeling that has no description ... because it is a "personal" feeling. To my ears, the "analog" this or that is not any more dated than you and I are, or our love for music ... and I really think that is way more important, don't you?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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pitfall
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Posted: September 22 2012 at 16:08 |
clarke2001 wrote:
Dgregsound wrote:
The main reason I feel analog synths (at least monophonic ones) sound dated in 70's prog is because there is an undeniable warmth to their sound. This is due to the fact that they were recorded strictly on tape and processed thru old school pre-amps and compressors. But another major factor is that analog synth filters (the parameter that controls cut-off frequency and resonance of an oscillators signal) are not made the way they were in the 70's. The filter has a big effect on the overall timbre of a synth and I guarantee if you compare an original Mini-Moog's filter to one of the new Voyager's filter, you would notice a distinct difference.
Personally I feel that this quality is anything but dated. Once polyphonic synthesizers started being utilized in more popular music, that warmth and distinct sound was lost forever. The fact that vintage properties of early synths became less prevalent in music doesn't mean it has a "dated sound". The instruments uniqueness will now forever be associated with the music presented on this website. |
This is what I'm being saying for ages. The golden era of prog ended more-or-less abouth the same time synthesizers became polyphonic.
And I agree new Voyagers don't sound as authentic as old Mini Moogs: I think discrete components for their filters are simply not available any more. That doesn't mean other analogs (even new ones) doesn't sound good in their own right: I don't mind Curtis/SSM chips at all.
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The components for building something very similar to a Minimoog 'D' are all still available - just check out the new Macbeth Micromac for a start. The reason that the Voyager sounds the way that it does, is that people want patch memories and tuning stability, and these are implemented using digital technology, and this impinges on the sound of the synth.
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pitfall
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Posted: September 22 2012 at 16:28 |
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People say that a Clavinet = funk, but just listen to Kerry Minnear of Gentle Giant fame on this instrument! In the end it's the player that makes an instrument sound good, bad, dated or plain fantastic.
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cstack3
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Posted: September 23 2012 at 00:09 |
Heh! I've been so busy with my business lately, I haven't made much music! Need to change that!
Analog synths dated? It's a tone, so it's also an acquired taste. I came to love the sound of the Mini-Moog early on (first heard it used in the recording of "Jesus Christ, Superstar") and Emerson's solos on the first ELP ("Lucky Man" especially) just nailed it for me!
Those early beasts were VERY unstable though! They would drift out-of-tune in the high temp stage environment, and eventually, the MiniMoog was designed with heated pots & oscillators to help combat that! However, fighting the flaws produced new sounds and techniques as Moshkito mentioned.
Glass Hammer resurrect some analog synth on their upcoming "Perilous," check out the samples on the Album Sampler....I think that this CD will have a good old-fashioned vibe!
Edited by cstack3 - September 23 2012 at 00:10
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moshkito
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Posted: September 23 2012 at 12:35 |
cstack3 wrote:
... However, fighting the flaws produced new sounds and techniques as Moshkito mentioned. ...
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I'm not sure that I would ever consider it ... "flaws" ... they would be compared to today's synths, but they were still in their infancy. I have Beaver and Krause, Stockhausen, Terry Riley and many others in the early days, and they were enamored with the sound itself as if it were an instrument and composed works based on that ability ... there was no such thing as a "flaw" because ... that was the sound that was there! But there are some funny details ... and when you have the time, look around for Edgar Froese's take on the echo chamber in the early days of Tangerine Dream ... they had some massive hassles with the "manual" echo chamber and then later with the tapes and later still ... and it is a funny detail about these machines ... it's like you are playing with marionettes and you hope they don't break or the strings come apart so you have to change the story ... such was the early Tangerine Dream concerts, and the reason why they are so different and the live albums so important in those early days ... they were all different! In some ways, what ELP and some of the more popular rock bands did, was help refine its use, for the stage! ... not always for composition ... which I suggest might be two different concepts. But what it really states, and this discussion illustrates it loud and clear, is that today's keyboard players are a dime a dozen and they do not know how to use a synthesizer at all ... they are mostly sampling parts of the orchestra to enhance their piece of music, and I am not sure that the early "prog" or "analog" were doing exactly that at all -- though this could be just a matter of semantics!
Edited by moshkito - September 23 2012 at 12:37
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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cstack3
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Posted: September 23 2012 at 19:18 |
^Thank you, that was an excellent & insightful post!
As a guitar player (primarily), I long experimented with the instrument & "aped" my heroes Fripp, Howe, Hackett and Peter Banks (a fine group to emulate, eh?). That led me to experiment with volume pedal in about 1974, fuzz tone before that etc. I eventually took advantage of analog delay and some of the digital processing effects as they came out, but I still tended to head towards a distinct early to mid-70's sound.
Keyboardists had a much tougher road back then! Keith Emerson used to stick a knife into the keyboard of his Hammond not out of showmanship, but to drive sounds that he could only get if adjoining keys were held down!!
Moraz DESTROYED me live, with his manipulation of the oscillators & filters on his Mini Moog! I was watching Howe, thinking he was coaxing those sounds out of his guitar, but he was just chugging along with rhythm....!!
Moraz went far beyond the simple "set the filter here, the oscillator there" approach of many of his peers (ummm, Wakeman?). Many of the jazz-rock guys like Jan Hammer were also headed in that direction, but I think Moraz broke the ice first!
Ah, sweet serendipity! We lack that in so much of the world of music nowadays....too many deadlines, too much pressure to "get it right," all this drive for perfection. Someday I'll get a Minimoog and see what a keyboard-illiterate guitarist/bassist can do to the thing!
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presdoug
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Posted: September 23 2012 at 21:03 |
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I love the sound of analog synths, period. I have no issues with it. And when it comes to music, in general, i like a time trip, so if it is dated, all the better
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cstack3
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Posted: September 23 2012 at 23:14 |
presdoug wrote:
I love the sound of analog synths, period. I have no issues with it. And when it comes to music, in general, i like a time trip, so if it is dated, all the better
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Great, Doug! My thoughts exactly!
Jürgen Fritz man-handled his Mini-Moog like it was a toy! It was fun to watch! He was a big, strong guy...
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presdoug
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 16:56 |
cstack3 wrote:
presdoug wrote:
I love the sound of analog synths, period. I have no issues with it. And when it comes to music, in general, i like a time trip, so if it is dated, all the better
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Great, Doug! My thoughts exactly!
Jürgen Fritz man-handled his Mini-Moog like it was a toy! It was fun to watch! He was a big, strong guy...
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Right on! That must have been something to see. 
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HackettFan
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Posted: September 25 2012 at 00:10 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
This reminds me of something that I find very ironic and inconsistent among prog fans. A lot of prog fans seem to hate neo prog because it sounds regressive and not progressive(in the literal sense)and yet many of these bands use digital keyboards. Meanwhile many of these same prog fans prefer analog keyboards in their prog(which were used in the seventies). I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways. You criticize neo for being retro and yet the so called real prog bands you like use analog keyboards. That doesn't make sense to me.
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The seventies synths tended to be modular, and lent themselves more to experimentation. The eighties synths were corporate products, no experimention, just lots of presets. That's the issue as I see it, but then again I'm a guitar player, and yet I run into the same issue. I stay away from Roland guitar synths for the same reason. Too corporate.
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Josef_K
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Posted: September 26 2012 at 08:58 |
HackettFan wrote:
The seventies synths tended to be modular, and lent themselves more to experimentation. The eighties synths were corporate products, no experimention, just lots of presets. That's the issue as I see it, but then again I'm a guitar player, and yet I run into the same issue. I stay away from Roland guitar synths for the same reason. Too corporate. |
I agree, and I would like to add that just because other technology is available doesn't mean it's not OK to use analog synths. Imo, it's a bit like saying you can't use acoustic guitars in progressive music because the electric guitar is a newer version of the instrument. Also, if you are using VA-synths, they really use digital technology to come close to the analog sound (in addition to other things), and there is NOTHING progressive about that :D You don't have to use the newest, or even remotely new, equipment to be experimental, you need to use it in a new way. Therefore, I claim that the sound of analog synths is not dated at all, no more than guitars, pianos, organs etc at least.
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Leave the past to burn,
At least that's been his own
- Peter Hammill
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cstack3
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Posted: September 26 2012 at 19:50 |
^Thanks! If we could only have a jam-session with all of the PA members who are musicians, think of the....lovely chaos!!
The famous VCS3 synth is rarely mentioned these days, but it was hugely influential at the beginning of prog...
Edited by cstack3 - September 26 2012 at 19:51
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Analog Synths sound dated?