Why classic prog faded?

There was an avant guard music scene in Seattle post grunge era that thrived for a time.. but lacked chops and virtuosity.
Jazz players often have the chops but keep cooking the same ol kettle of beans. 

It's the Fripp's and Zappa's of the world that really embrace both.. and is really at the heart of progressive rock music... creativity and virtuosity. 

Where does creativity come from?

Surrealist wrote: There was an avant guard music scene in Seattle post grunge era that thrived for a time.. but lacked chops and virtuosity.Jazz players often have the chops but keep cooking the same ol kettle of beans.  It's the Fripp's and Zappa's of the world that really embrace both.. and is really at the heart of progressive rock music... creativity and virtuosity.  Where does creativity come from?

Really not sure what you mean here? Creative in the virtuaso sense. Like where did the virtuaso movement start?

cstack3 wrote: Surrealist wrote: There was an avant guard music scene in Seattle post grunge era that thrived for a time.. but lacked chops and virtuosity. Jazz players often have the chops but keep cooking the same ol kettle of beans.  It's the Fripp's and Zappa's of the world that really embrace both.. and is really at the heart of progressive rock music... creativity and virtuosity.  Where does creativity come from? I get your meaning....for example, what motivated Bob Fripp, who was formally trained in "trad jazz" in the British style, to form something as wild as Giles, Giles & Fripp, and then King Crimson?  You can always hear his traditional jazz background in his guitar playing if you listen for it.   And I hear you about the "same kettle of beans" of the trad jazz crowd!  Seems like, when a leader within the culture like Fareed Haque goes off & becomes progressive, he or she gets dissed by their fellows in the jazz community.   The classical music crowd are far, far worse.  This peer pressure probably dis-incentivizes many musicians from taking a progressive path.

As far as I am aware Robert Fripp wasn't formally trained in trad jazz. Sure he had guitar and music lessons but those were the standard UK high-school level. Very few of the "classic era" musicians were ever formally trained in music, be that classical or jazz

The Flower Kings, Anglagard, Spock's Beard, IQ, or Dream Theater. DT's

Dream Theater is Prog Metal.  I prefer just the metal part and the prog aspect makes no sense in metal.  Metal is meant to be heavy and driving.  Bill Ward is all I need from a heavy drummer.  Keep the Prog drummer in the Prog band.. not in a metal band.  That is like putting Portnoy in a Reggae band. 

I have seen Dream Theater and Spocks live several times..  Spocks was a very good band early on..but too derivative from the 70's prog bands.. not enough originality for me.  The great Prog bands were all so original in their sound.. while using the same paint pod colors.  No different than 10 artists dipping into the paint and creating something totally different.  My argument is that you don't need to keep changing the actual paint itself to be progressive. ... which is essentially what the digital age has done.  My own sister went from being a masterful painter on canvas to a computer graphics artist... photoshop all that silly stuff.  Good for some things.. but not for fine art. Same with music.  Keep the computers in your office and out of your recording studio.

I have heard Flower Kings and Anglagard, and I like both those bands a lot... their earlier stuff at least.  I subscribe to Progression Magazine, but don't find much of great interest there too often.  There are things I like.. don't get me wrong.. but compared to the great Prog bands like Yes, ELP, Crimson, Tull, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Camel, Floyd, Rush, I don't see anything anywhere in the ball park of that stuff.  Where is it?

Surrealist wrote: There are things I like.. don't get me wrong.. but compared to the great Prog bands like Yes, ELP, Crimson, Tull, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Camel, Floyd, Rush, I don't see anything anywhere in the ball park of that stuff.  Where is it?

pretty much how I feel, but looking back on history and cycles i think another great cycle of music is right around the corner. i feel like for a while everyone's just been focusing on the technology and sh*t like that but i think soon we'll start seeing people who grew up with it and so are very familiar and comfortable with the new devices we have but will also have the passion and creativity to make something interesting. if you look at some of the underground electronic stuff you can already see it moving away from standard dance music to something more ambitious.

i also decided to kinda try and take things into my hands in some ways which is why I'm focusing on music tons now. it might be silly dreams or too much confidence but I think that if all goes well I could play a role in ushering in a new era of music that's both progressively interesting and genuinely expressive. of course like i said i admit the possibility of this just being wishful thinking but hey it's possible. i'm only 18 and i think my current works show a lot of potential, once i get a full band of similar minded people i think it'll really start coming together

Sumdeus...

You have already made a difference just thinking that way.  It's not wishful thinking.  Make it happen.  Keep it interesting at every level and keep it real and you will not go wrong.

Howe plays things no one else can play... Fripp oddly enough is a huge Robin Trower fan.. and commented on his amazing ability to use vibrato far beyond his contemporaries.

Who is the "Robin Trower" of today?  John Mayer?  Is that where Blues has progressed?... because things change and this is the new sound people want to hear?

Where is Bob Marley? Joni? Jaco? Miles?

Surrealist wrote: Who is the "Robin Trower" of today?  John Mayer?  Is that where Blues has progressed?... because things change and this is the new sound people want to hear?

Well, there is the excellent guitarist Derek Trucks. And oddly enough, the amazing Stevie Ray Vaughan was active in the 80s...the very decade you seem to loath so much.

cstack3 wrote: Not "formally," as in a university education, but as in being taught the fundamentals of jazz theory, mechanics of playing the instrument, theory & composition.  From Wikipedia: Fripp began playing guitar at the age of eleven.[24] When he started, he was tone deaf and had no rhythmical sense, weaknesses which led him later to comment "Music so wishes to be heard that it sometimes calls on unlikely characters to give it voice."[25] While being taught guitar basics by his teacher Don Strike,[26][27] Fripp began to develop the technique of crosspicking, which became one of his specialties.[26] Fripp teaches crosspicking to his students in Guitar Craft.[28] Fripp has also mentioned in interviews that his first guitar had such a high string action that it gave him a "musculature that was difficult to control" in later playing on the Les Paul.   His cross-picking allows him to play things that none of his peers even attempt ("Fracture" from SABB for example).    More on Bob's early guitar lessons are at this link:  http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_Robert_Fripp_in_Rock_and_Folk Don's teachings were based on the Big Bands of the 20's. A multi-instrumentalist, he also mastered Hawaiian guitar, banjo...His wife would often appear in a flashy skirt to do a little hula-hoop...A real character who taught me a great deal by connecting me to tradition.  ....An old-time jazz purist like Joe Pass would've been able to play "Fracture," but not many rock guitarists.  I'm fairly certain Howe couldn't pull it off.

That doesn't indicate that he was formally taught trad jazz, this is from Fripp's diary:

Edited by Dean - November 13 2012 at 02:37

moshkito wrote: cstack3 wrote: Surrealist wrote: There was an avant guard music scene in Seattle post grunge era that thrived for a time.. but lacked chops and virtuosity. Jazz players often have the chops but keep cooking the same ol kettle of beans.  It's the Fripp's and Zappa's of the world that really embrace both.. and is really at the heart of progressive rock music... creativity and virtuosity.  Where does creativity come from? I get your meaning....for example, what motivated Bob Fripp, who was formally trained in "trad jazz" in the British style, to form something as wild as Giles, Giles & Fripp, and then King Crimson?  You can always hear his traditional jazz background in his guitar playing if you listen for it.   ...   I'm not sure this is true, or correct. Robert is versed a lot more in the experimental traditions that break down music, and are NOT jazz oriented. Those traditions, tend to break down all music to its "nothing-ness", which is a very Gurdgieff'ian idea ... which Robert would be familiar with. Gurdgieff's exercises and ideas, have been usd in film and theater (Peter Brook) and many musicians, who have not mentioned it, or, perhaps, it is just too difficult to explain, and not worth the time and effort -- specially in a place like this, where popular ideas and culture rule!

Rock & Folk >> Krishna-Murti, Gurdjieff...? Fripp >> I don't know any of these people, their names say nothing to me... Rock & Folk >> Of course, of course...Has the gurdjieffian theory of multiplicity not modified the question of harmonic intervals, and your scales in half key? Fripp >> If the question is to know if I have a discipline of life, the answer is yes. But I don't see things in categorical terms...