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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 01:58
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 16:09
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The Classic Prog bands, at least on their great albums made sure their musical chops or virtuosity shined.  They used time tested great sounding instruments.  They paid attention to composition and made sure it was crafted with care and attention to detail, stylish and tasteful for what they were trying accomplish. 

I think in a way Frank Zappa would NOT fall into the category of Classic Prog, because much of it while virtuostic was not tasteful in the classic Prog sensibility.

Gentle Giant did things "tongue in cheek" for sure... but somehow it was stylishly acceptable within the Prog fans or followers.

The digital age really hurt the Prog bands.. but I am not sure how Steve Howe decided to do "Asia" and still bad mouths the Trevor Rabin "Yes"  I think Rabin did some interesting things on some of the deeper album cuts than Howe ever did in Asia.  But if we are talking "Yes" then it is all about Howe for me.  80's YES should have been called "Cinema" as originally intended.

Why did all the classic prog bands go POP?  Where is the integrity?  Only Fripp has integrity in my opinion.  Well, I would say Hackett also if I can overlook a couple of his early 80's albums.  He did wake up quickly from that and really continued the Classic tradition even until this day and he is doing fine.

Does Steve Hackett ever contribute on these boards?
It felt or seemed that Trevor Rabin was a bit of a showboater on guitar and if you watch the interviews on the Yes documentary ...you might get the feeling he is egocentric. I never was convinced that Steve Howe was having an honest good time with his position while Rabin stood on the same stage with him. Some guitartists attempt to race with other guitarists who have no desire to indulge in such a fancy. Because they are just being open, diverse, and humble ....that alone to a egocentric guitarist is considered weakness and is greatly misunderstood. Then a disrespect for each other evolves from that stand. I could be dead wrong regarding the 2 guitarists I have given for an example...however they trait runs vast in the world of guitarists. Steve Hackett is greatly appreciated for his originality in prog. Even though his influences are evident to the listener..he takes the music steps further and is very creative. I definitely respect Steve Hackett and not only for his talent, but for his expressive ideas in his writing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 17:05
Don't think Howe ever wanted to share the stage with Rabin who endlessly cheesed up his guitar parts---Rabin is a technically okay guitarist but really an 80's hair guitarist in the Van Halen school---not really my thing or Howe's thing---so, I too think Rabin Yes should have been called Cinema--I mean Howe always separated Asia and Yes as a pop group vs a prog group---Rabin and company tried to combine the two and it was a bit of a mess--producing neither good pop or good prog---at least for me Yes West fails the test of time. For me--Howe is one of the greatest---
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 18:08
With out the fading of classic prog rock, then their would be no such thing as the Neo prog genre. That means no bands like ARENA, IQ and MARILLION. imagine prog in general with out these great bands. I can't. The prog genre would seem less appealing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 18:20
Really? i think I would be totally fine with just pre-80's prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 18:31
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Don't think Howe ever wanted to share the stage with Rabin who endlessly cheesed up his guitar parts---Rabin is a technically okay guitarist but really an 80's hair guitarist in the Van Halen school---not really my thing or Howe's thing---so, I too think Rabin Yes should have been called Cinema--I mean Howe always separated Asia and Yes as a pop group vs a prog group---Rabin and company tried to combine the two and it was a bit of a mess--producing neither good pop or good prog---at least for me Yes West fails the test of time. For me--Howe is one of the greatest---
I believe Rabin and Howe are both technically brilliant. I've watched Rabin on video tape playing extensive fast and technical lines , but it's the style that clashes with Howe. I've played lines , passages in Metal music that require the up most speed and focus and are just as difficult as Metheny, or even Pat Martino. Only because those fast repeated lines in Metal derive from composers like Paganini and so they are a hundred percent adapted from intense Classical music. A piece from Paganini's 24 caprices ignorantly re-titled "Eugene's Trick Bag" in the movie Crossroads was played by Steve Vai and instruction is available on Y.T. along with statements like "Oh, it's easy". Many guitar instructors have the wrong notes in some cases because they didn't study Classical guitar. Steve Vai obviously must have read Classical music before even joining Zappa. If you honestly attempt to play that piece everyday with an uptempo speed ...you then realize that magnitude of the intensity put forth in your energy level. I think many Metal guitarists could play John Coltrane's lines if they put their minds to it. But the mentality of their performance is too showboating for my taste. Steve Howe has a different mind set. Steve Howe is the type of guitarist that could run a quick line of notes from the bottom of the neck up to the highest fret and back again with total clarity...yet refuses to do it based on the simple logic that it is not fitting. He is definitely from a different school which teaches more about melody. I respect Satrani and Eric Johnson for their amazing abilities and not so much for their writing. While Steve Howe I respect as a innovator that took chances with the guitar and for example "The Yes Album" ...When he joined Yes it was like magic. Technically a brilliant guitarist, but added so much more to the music then just his guitar playing alone. Amazing guy!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 19:13

What had been written in music and derived from various centuries was repeated in Prog rock. It was added into rock music and it was a teaching because after Keith Emerson formed the Nice ...many bands followed in his footsteps. Bands like Beggar's Opera, Rare Bird, Trace and many others adapted not only his concept , but spent too much time on emulating every detail about it. I would listen to Curved Air and hear the style of Robert Fripp's writing. I suppose this can't be helped. It's like listening to Vivaldi and feeling cheated by the sections which are reminiscent of J.S. Bach. Bands like Ange and Pulsar being influenced by Genesis and Pink Floyd was not by any means to take away from their originality, but to simply place reflections of those bands before them in a subtle way. It's sad that in the entertainment industry a prog musician/icon had to dress like he was performing in the circus. That's what killed prog because the American audience expected more of a show. More musicians wearing capes and sticking knifes in their organs. You would see pure rockers in the audience at the "Thick as a Brick" concert trying to groove along with the strangest time signatures, the concert being sold out, kids in high school listening to Jethro Tull everyday and the industry pulls the rug from underneath it all. By the time I hit the theatre circuit during the late 70's...those theatres were packed to the max. There was no problem with society liking prog! It was the industry making a dreadful move to dismiss prog. People wanted it! In the early 80's kids would be watching a hard rock/metal type cover band for about an hour and leave to see a prog cover band up the street who would play Jethro Tull, Genesis, or Yes. The interest was still evident to all. It was very sad watching classic prog fade that way. When you stood in front of a packed house and played "Watcher of the Skies", getting a standing O IN 1979, It clearly states that it was the industry that wanted nothing to do with it. That is so depressing when you measure up the demand people had for prog and then the industry made it more difficult for the average individual to listen to it. Most people depended on the radio and that is why they bought Trumvirat albums or Trick of the Tail by Genesis. How sad to think that the industry would completely turn their backs on it when I was making thousands of dollars playing it. That's very unjust and quite ignorant.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 19:37
^Insightful post, Johnny
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 22:34
If Rush didn't lend themselves over to the 90's wave of electric then no SIGNALS album. That's an album I just can't be without. Still relevant today interns of sound and innovation. Turns 30yrs-old this year.

Another thing is that a band has to be brave and challenge themselves when ushering in a new kind of sound to their music. Alex. L. Was brave enough and innovative enough to change around his whole guitar style in 1981 with moving Pictures. My point is the classic style of 70 's prog had to fade. If RUSH did not change tho gs around in the 80's they would not be relevant in the 21st century. Same goes for GENESIS.

I think we can equate 'Fading' with evolution in this thread topic.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 22:36
^ woops! Type o! Meant to say 80's.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 01:46
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:

It was Invisible Touch.
yep age is getting the better of me
Big smile
 
 
Sorry, but I don't find that scene funny. Rather creepy. Br-r-r-r-r-r-... .

.
 
My feelings as well . Its only 'funny' on recollection but then I got that wrong in my head anyway.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 04:57
The problem of early Prog (and prog in general) is a tendency towards a  lack of restraint and taste in pursuit of freedom of expression and musical experimentation. As has been said, this was the lesson not learned by those listening (and being influenced by) bands like 1-2-3. 1-2-3 contained all the experimental music, the virtuoso approach, but never lost sight of taste or context. Unfortunately for them, as Bowie said, the audience was oblivious to subtle nuance, and leaned instead towards flash and bombast. As the 70's went on, the success of bands like Yes, King Crimson, ELP encouraged these artists to feel they had carte blanche to do anything they wanted, till finally even a dim and sycophantic audience realised it had all gone too far.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 09:54
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^Insightful post, Johnny
Thanks
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 13:23
I disagree that Classic Prog needed to fade away, anymore than classic jazz or roots Reggae need to fade away.  Toddler's points are valid, and in a few weeks "The Musical Box" will be filling the seats of a 1000 chair venue doing a rendition of "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" played in it's entirety. 

The key for any band that is pursuing a noteworthy legacy is to keep trying to do GREAT WORKS.

Rush would not be around or talked about as a great Prog band if they started their career in the 80's doing Signals, Grace, Power Windows etc.  Rush's legacy as a Prog band is because they did Hemispheres and A Farewell to Kings, 2112.

Same can be said for YES or Genesis. Their legacy is rooted in their great works... and those great works came in the early to mid 70's. 

I disagree that it became "too over the top"  Yes' last real Prog album was Drama, which was not nearly as ambitious as even Tormato, Going for the One.  Certainly not as ambitous and Relayer or Tales. 

If anything.. prog got lazy and less ambitious, and this is why they lost their following.  I could say that about a lot of classic rock and hard rock also.  Certainly the early Santana albums were MUCH more ambitious than what came later, and even as a blues guitarist... Robin Trower never captured "Twice Removed from Yesteday, Bridge of Sighs, or For Earth Below".  

As a Prog artist, one should be thinking about their legacy.  It's a very real reality folks.  It's much more about "integrity" than "The sound of Salesmen"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 13:27

Progbethyname,

You clearly prefer the neo prog sound..
It's really great that you post here because I just can't in anyway relate to how a neo prog is a step forward in the genre.

Could you please enlighten us on the why for instance Signals is an album you can't live without? compared to Hemispheres?

Of course you could use any example you want.. just trying to understand and not being judgmental... only seeking clarity here.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 13:43
Obviously, people here understand "fading" differently. You have to clarify what you guys mean by "fading".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 15:48
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Obviously, people here understand "fading" differently. You have to clarify what you guys mean by "fading".


Okay...Rush, Genesis, King Crimson and Yes changed their sound in order to keep selling records in the 80s (or because they WANTED to play something else). 
Rush is experiencing a revival with their classic sound. (Their south american dvd spells that out clearly)
However, I feel that Rush is an exception.  Prog's momentum I feel did take a dip towards the later 70's, but then again, I might be wrong.  I cant help but wonder, was it industry, fans, or the bands themselves that wanted the change.  I mean, Geddy LOVED his synths.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 16:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Now either you're blaming commercialitis or GTR.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 16:40
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Now either you're blaming commercialitis or GTR.
'twas in response to the previous post, not the OP Tongue
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2012 at 20:51
Signals is a great album.  I don't understand in what way it would represent a loss of integrity unless merely using synths is a sin.  
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