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Topic Closed3 Prog Rock Giants

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Poll Question: Who's the greatest, only pick one of the three
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
45 [34.09%]
49 [37.12%]
38 [28.79%]
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ProgMetaller2112 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:48
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

I agree but we are talking about KC and Genesis here not Deep Purple or Black Sabbath, haven't heard of sarcasm, eh

I have already answered that question once, twice and this is the last time.   Try getting that into your head or if you have another of your brain farts, go see the doc first.  And try also to avoid your pseudo-condescension because it is hilarious; yes - shock and horror - we have heard all these albums that you go on and on.   I had said Red is heavier than Yes or Genesis so comparing Musical Box to anything KC had released up to that point is irrelevant here.   I don't think you have any convincing Yes or Genesis exhibits to demonstrate that they could be heavier than Red, so you deliberately twisted the argument just to score a point.   For the last time, stop arguing and learn to discuss instead.


I'm not arguing I'm discussing this with you. I don't think that that is irrelevant though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:43
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

I agree but we are talking about KC and Genesis here not Deep Purple or Black Sabbath, haven't heard of sarcasm, eh

I have already answered that question once, twice and this is the last time.   Try getting that into your head or if you have another of your brain farts, go see the doc first.  And try also to avoid your pseudo-condescension because it is hilarious; yes - shock and horror - we have heard all these albums that you go on and on.   I had said Red is heavier than Yes or Genesis so comparing Musical Box to anything KC had released up to that point is irrelevant here.   I don't think you have any convincing Yes or Genesis exhibits to demonstrate that they could be heavier than Red, so you deliberately twisted the argument just to score a point.   For the last time, stop arguing and learn to discuss instead.


Edited by rogerthat - January 26 2013 at 20:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:40
I agree but we are talking about KC and Genesis here not Deep Purple or Black Sabbath, haven't heard of sarcasm, eh
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:38
So what if it is?  The TONE doesn't have much heaviness.  Ditto, Musical Box.   Such music is rather too melodic for me to associate it with heavy metal.   Compare Knife to what Deep Purple were doing on In Rock or even the Warpigs riff, that is a lot heavier already.   By 1971, there's no question that Sabbath was a lot heavier with tracks like Into the Void.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:35
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

It's not heavy anymore circa 2013 but at that time, it was.   What was the heaviest music of that time?  Maybe some Doors or the first LZ.  It was heavier than any of those. By that token, Musical Box is not heavy as of today either, nor is Knife.


The Knife is not heavyShockedShockedShocked, please "Batter over their heads" if that's not heavy I don't know what is Stern Smile that's Iommi-esque and neither is The Musical Box LOL


Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - January 26 2013 at 20:37
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:33
It's not heavy anymore circa 2013 but at that time, it was.   What was the heaviest music of that time?  Maybe some Doors or the first LZ.  It was heavier than any of those. By that token, Musical Box is not heavy as of today either, nor is Knife.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:31
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

I never said KC were metal. The point I'm supporting is that I think King Crimson's heavy sections are heavier than any time Genesis gets a bit heavy, because I don't really think Genesis is ever heavy


In this case heavy is in the ear of the beholder. I think Genesis has their moments of heaviness and they happened before KC pretty much

Nope, because Schizoid was even earlier than Nursery Cryme, to say nothing of Relayer.   In 1969, there was nothing as heavy as 21st century Schizoid Man and once again in 73-74, with Fracture and Red, KC made some of the heaviest rock music up to that point.  


In 1969, there was nothing as heavy as 21st century Schizoid Man


Black Sabbath was heavier

Dude, the Black Sabbath released only after Court of the Crimson King.   You can make a pedantic objection if you like but the point stands that 21st century Schizoid Man was the heaviest rock music up to that point when it came out.  Yes and Genesis weren't even close.   


To me there is nothing heavy about Schizoid Man except the power chords overall it really is not heavy but I can see what you are talking about
“War is peace.

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Ignorance is strength.”

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"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:26
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

I never said KC were metal. The point I'm supporting is that I think King Crimson's heavy sections are heavier than any time Genesis gets a bit heavy, because I don't really think Genesis is ever heavy


In this case heavy is in the ear of the beholder. I think Genesis has their moments of heaviness and they happened before KC pretty much

Nope, because Schizoid was even earlier than Nursery Cryme, to say nothing of Relayer.   In 1969, there was nothing as heavy as 21st century Schizoid Man and once again in 73-74, with Fracture and Red, KC made some of the heaviest rock music up to that point.  


In 1969, there was nothing as heavy as 21st century Schizoid Man


Black Sabbath was heavier

Dude, the Black Sabbath released only after Court of the Crimson King.   You can make a pedantic objection if you like but the point stands that 21st century Schizoid Man was the heaviest rock music up to that point when it came out.  Yes and Genesis weren't even close.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:26
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

 
This piece easily crushes any Genesis or Yes track for sheer heaviness:

I'm not starting again but have you ever heard of The Musical Box and Gates of Delirium and to say that is just ludicrous. Genesis had The Musical Box and Giant Hogweed in terms of sheer heaviness prior to any of that from King Crimson

This piece easily crushes any Genesis or Yes track for sheer heaviness:

So this is what I have to say about your comment
LOLLOL
LOLLOL








I had obviously made a comment comparing the track Red to Genesis or Yes, not KC tracks prior to Hogweed, Gates of Delirium, Musical Box.  So now you are just twisting the argument in a desperate bid to 'win' it.   If that does not characterise trolling, I don't know what does.   And I don't see how Gates of Delirium is anywhere near as heavy as Red, not even close.   Neither of those bands ever had such an industrial sound as that lineup of KC.   I do agree that Hackett's solo on Musical Box anticipates the approach of metal lead guitar but for heavy rhythm guitar, KC is a lot more like metal than Genesis or Yes ever were.  


I'm not trolling, OK. I'm just trying to point out that you're wrong
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Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

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"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

I never said KC were metal. The point I'm supporting is that I think King Crimson's heavy sections are heavier than any time Genesis gets a bit heavy, because I don't really think Genesis is ever heavy


In this case heavy is in the ear of the beholder. I think Genesis has their moments of heaviness and they happened before KC pretty much

Nope, because Schizoid was even earlier than Nursery Cryme, to say nothing of Relayer.   In 1969, there was nothing as heavy as 21st century Schizoid Man and once again in 73-74, with Fracture and Red, KC made some of the heaviest rock music up to that point.  


In 1969, there was nothing as heavy as 21st century Schizoid Man


Black Sabbath was heavier
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:21
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

I never said KC were metal. The point I'm supporting is that I think King Crimson's heavy sections are heavier than any time Genesis gets a bit heavy, because I don't really think Genesis is ever heavy


In this case heavy is in the ear of the beholder. I think Genesis has their moments of heaviness and they happened before KC pretty much

Nope, because Schizoid was even earlier than Nursery Cryme, to say nothing of Relayer.   In 1969, there was nothing as heavy as 21st century Schizoid Man and once again in 73-74, with Fracture and Red, KC made some of the heaviest rock music up to that point.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:19
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

 
This piece easily crushes any Genesis or Yes track for sheer heaviness:

I'm not starting again but have you ever heard of The Musical Box and Gates of Delirium and to say that is just ludicrous. Genesis had The Musical Box and Giant Hogweed in terms of sheer heaviness prior to any of that from King Crimson

This piece easily crushes any Genesis or Yes track for sheer heaviness:

So this is what I have to say about your comment
LOLLOL
LOLLOL








I had obviously made a comment comparing the track Red to Genesis or Yes, not KC tracks prior to Hogweed, Gates of Delirium, Musical Box.  So now you are just twisting the argument in a desperate bid to 'win' it.   If that does not characterise trolling, I don't know what does.   And I don't see how Gates of Delirium is anywhere near as heavy as Red, not even close.   Neither of those bands ever had such an industrial sound as that lineup of KC.   I do agree that Hackett's solo on Musical Box anticipates the approach of metal lead guitar but for heavy rhythm guitar, KC is a lot more like metal than Genesis or Yes ever were.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:14
Yes.
"Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself" - Sartre
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 20:01
Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

I never said KC were metal. The point I'm supporting is that I think King Crimson's heavy sections are heavier than any time Genesis gets a bit heavy, because I don't really think Genesis is ever heavy


In this case heavy is in the ear of the beholder. I think Genesis has their moments of heaviness and they happened before KC pretty much
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 19:50
I never said KC were metal. The point I'm supporting is that I think King Crimson's heavy sections are heavier than any time Genesis gets a bit heavy, because I don't really think Genesis is ever heavy
Sumdeus - surreal space/psych/prog journeys
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 19:49
Good News:Tony Iommi defeated cancer Beer
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 19:48
Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

nobody is saying King Crimson is metal. You don't have to be metal to influence metal. Genesis are not metal either. And Steve Hackett is not metal.


You're right, Rome Wink but you are acting as if they are though
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Ignorance is strength.”

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"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 19:43
nobody is saying King Crimson is metal. You don't have to be metal to influence metal. Genesis are not metal either. And Steve Hackett is not metal.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 19:42
Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

after a quick search it seems he was indeed one of the first for rock music, although Ritchie Blackmore claims seeing Harvey Mandel do it as far back as '68. Still, it was already used a lot in jazz guitar and other stuff prior to Hackett.

also would like to point out that I don't deny Hackett's influence on heavy metal soloing but we were talking specifically about the heaviness of Genesis and I don't think Hackett's soloing is enough for me to consider Genesis heavy ever


I suggest that you look up Metal Evolution the Episode for Prog Metal. Michael Giles is on it and he flat-out says that King Crimson is not Metal
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Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 19:41
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Did Fripp come up with two-hand tapping, I think not Stern Smile

Are you saying Hackett did? Cuz no


Edited by Horizons - January 26 2013 at 19:52
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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