Good prog band, bad drummer

Snow Dog wrote: ^I honestly don't think much to it. Can you  tell me where the mistake is?

I don't think timing is everything (as Peter Erskine claims). For me the issue is mostly the sound of the drums and the mixing, and of course the playing style, whether there is overplaying or too much repepetition, or on the contrary, lack of character and expression.

Most drummers even on amateur level focuses a lot on on keeping the time so it's rarely a big issue. If I see some local unsigned rock band live , timing is rarely an issue. It can be stiff though,but that's not about timing, it's about feeling and looseness, being relaxed. If I don't like the band, it's the playing style,originality, dynamics, the sound, and mix levels that decides it, along with the music itself. Many drummers, like most musicians, go for a certain style, emulating something or someone. The result is often very limited ideas, songs go in the same tempo, drum fills are the same, no variation.

I think the type of drummers that are studio musicians, professional time keepers, often can bring some negative effects. Their playing can be overly emphasized and articulated so it becomes too slick, and a too strong emphasis on the instrument instead of the wholeness of the song. Even my biggest influence Simon Phillips is not always great, I always like to hear his drumming, as an isolated thing, but his specific sound doesn't fit ideally in all contexts.

"Keeping time" and being "technical" is not the determining factors of a drummers greatness.It's not too relevant, it's just aspects that every musician have to deal with. Being able to keep time and having freedom to express anyhting (with the use of technical ability) are just preconditions. It's what you do with it that counts, the style of playing, the choice of drums, cymbals and heads , the mic placements.

Music that's dominated by drums may be experienced as if the drummer is overplaying , but it might be uneven mixing, drums being too loud or too close in the mix. It can also be related to sound, for example too much compression. Mixing, sound, and effects influence the drums a lot and decides a lot for me whether I will like it or not. The latest Saga album had a bad drums sound in my view and the whole album was too compressed.

Concerning Portnoy, I think his playing is one aspect that wears down the music in the long run, because it's so dominating (in sound and playing), along with the vocals. .But it's of course it's a matter of taste.

Jazzfusion is a genre that has a lot of overplaying, but it's supposed to be that way. It can be very tiresome and instrument-focused. Of course you can use that way of playing in a prog-context but it may not be good for the music.

Steve Smith playing with Focus on "Wingless" is an example were I don't like the overuse of bass drum, and the sound doesn't appeal to me and is mixed too close in a way common in the seventies. But the song is quite okay and could have been much better. (many of you probably like this sound though, but it's up to each person's taste)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqfzcJkpRU

Passport – Ostinato                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vkIEG1M4ZA

Great song - but I don't like the compressed snare and bass drum sound. The drums are also very close and high in the mix. The drumming is seems a bit stiff and undynamic, but again, a better sound and mixing might have made the playing sound good.

I never liked Änglagård, but what was most annoying to me was the drumming - the sound and the drum fills.  He was only 16 years old by the way (or something like that).





Edited by wilmon91 - March 07 2013 at 12:08

Jim Garten wrote: Blacksword wrote: He was a poor time keeper, and a generally very erratic drummer, screwing up fills badly. He did play with 'great energy' and I guess that was the point of his contribution Reminds me of another drummer +++COUGHkeithmoonCOUGH++++

Yeah, I always thought that about Moon too. Still a +++COUGHgreat drummer though+++COUGH

Dellinger wrote: He may not be able to do the little nuances other drummers do, but for Dream Theater I think he was just what they needed.

I don't necessarily agree with the rest of your comment but this is a good point.   It's not as if DT have transformed beyond recognition since his departure.   Actually they all like precision at pace and they all like to play heavy, so it's a good match in that sense.  If he was very loose while the rest were metronomic, it would stick out in a bad way.

Blacksword wrote: Jim Garten wrote: Blacksword wrote: He was a poor time keeper, and a generally very erratic drummer, screwing up fills badly. He did play with 'great energy' and I guess that was the point of his contribution Reminds me of another drummer +++COUGHkeithmoonCOUGH++++ Yeah, I always thought that about Moon too. Still a +++COUGHgreat drummer though+++COUGH

JediJoker7169 wrote: wilmon91 wrote: I think the type of drummers that are studio musicians, professional time keepers, often can bring some negative effects. Their playing can be overly emphasized and articulated so it becomes too slick, and a too strong emphasis on the instrument instead of the wholeness of the song. I disagree.  Full band members may feel comfortable playing out and stealing the spotlight every once in a while, but session musicians are hired for a specific purpose and must do their best to fit in with the groove of the other musicians on the session.  It's not "about them:" it's about the artist on whose record they're playing. Skip to 2:33 for the relevant bit.

I like "Aja", it was one of my favourite albums to play along to in the cellar of the house I lived in in the 90's. I have played to it over a hundred times and learned the half time shuffle from "Home at Last" (not Rosanna, another very famous half-time shuffle by Toto).

Anyway, my point was, that if all that counts is keeping time and being at a technically advanced level, then all the studio musicians would be better than the non-studio musicians. And that's not the case, in my opinion. All drummers have their style, whether it's a unique style, or heavily inspired by someone else. Steve Gadd influenced a lot of studio drummers. I think that at the end of the seventies and beginning of the 80's studio musician drummers more and more tried to have a perfect machine-like timing, like a drum machine. A lot of pop music was starting to become a bit machine-like also, like the futuristic synth-pop among other things. All times have their sounds and ideals. Certain kinds of studio musican drummign can make me bored.  One of Bruce Cockburn's weaker albums, "Inner City Front" (1981)  is an album with boring drums, Gadd-inspired but just..boring , here is a song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsegNDAhFEk  There are countless of examples with this type of studio musician sound and drumming,  pretty typical for this time.

Different ideals change over time, there's the tendency during the end of 70's and during the 80's to accentuate the snare drum beats, which in a way expresses secureness and  confidence in the drumming. I think there are such examples with Steely Dan on other albums (not Aja which is the best I have heard from them). To me it becomes boring when you feel that the only object in the drummer's mind  is to prove that he can hold a steady beat , being fully secure in his playing. It may become a bit nerdy and overshadows the creativity.

But I'm not saying that I dislike studio musican drummer's, I am just pointing out the tendency that it may be boring when it's too secure and recognizable, in regards to both sound and playing. One reason may be that some of those drummers stick to a certain method, certain patterns and rules being stuck in a creatively limited way of thinking.

Also, one and the same drummer may be boring on one album and great on another. Vinnie Colaiuta can be boring when doing fusion drumming - I haven't been excited by some  Holdsworth stuff I have heard. But when doing individual session songs, he may be great, like on Duran Duran's "Breath After Breath"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPxc8YOYjok   So different contexts brings out different stuff with different drummers.


Edited by wilmon91 - March 08 2013 at 17:20

catfood03 wrote: Here's a twist... How about a band that doesn't measure up to their drummer? At least that's what I initially thought of Mastodon.

Genesis.

catfood03 wrote: Here's a twist... How about a band that doesn't measure up to their drummer? At least that's what I initially thought of Mastodon.

A man after my own heart: Danny Carey's drumming on Lateralus is unfailingly brilliant but I heartily loathe every note that his colleagues in Tool have ever issued alas....

KingCrInuYasha wrote: @darkshade True. Terry Bozzio's drumming is pretty sweet.

Chad Wackerman too was great, all of his drummers were pretty damn amazing

Lands End fits the description I think. I guess the rest of the band members aren't virtuosos but the drummer in particular has given some sometimes cringe worthy performances. I still love the band though:

Edited by bytor2112 - March 11 2013 at 01:01