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Equality 7-2521 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
 Posted: November 25 2013 at 09:56 |
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Hm, well can you explain a bit about it? I know of the concept, but not quite sure how it relates to your point.
As for big government, well tough to disagree it's too big today. I feel it's too big in all the wrong places, but in terms of economics...the 1920s and 80s (really 90s) on were deregulation of finance, and I think perhaps that is the issue.
Like I said, it may not be that capitalism itself, as a structure, is the problem, but that finance will grow out of hand if unchecked and lead to many negative results. Gov is part of the problem as they favor that sector, but it could also be argued that being influenced solely by $$$, as finance grows, it will lead to the gov favoring it more by default.
Needless to say I don't believe in Austrian theory. After my flirtation, I see some validity to the core of the theory (such as CBs tinkering leading to worse results, and too low rates clearly can fuel bubbles) but there's a whole lot of it I don't see translating to reality. Especially some of their implications [/QUOTE]Depending on how my day goes I would like to write something relatively lengthy. I don't know. The regulation of the banking industry in those respective decades was pretty disastrous so I'm not sure I agree with your point. Neither do I. But that doesn't invalidate all of the work they've done. Their ultimate downfall is their total refusal to treat economics as a physical science, which is strange because part of their great strength was acknowledging that economics is not a physical science. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: November 25 2013 at 09:39 |
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Quite.
If one wants to maintain capitalism, I think some type of regulation and restraint is needed. I know many here think it must be all or nothing, 1800s laissez-faire or communism, but there are shades of every type of system imaginable.
We deff can't try various old ways of thought, a new way is needed. After all, as many Austrians point out the economy is not stagnant, nor is it even a "thing" but the impossible web of the god knows how many actors and related impacts, many of which are not even seen. So seems silly to me to keep harping for an older period of thought.
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The T
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: November 25 2013 at 09:27 |
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Capitalism, as implied in its very name, leads to accumulation of capital, which in itself is not bad and it's the tool to, in theory, generate wealth outwards. But accumulation of capital leads to power. And though government doesn't help as it basically colludes with that power, I'm almost certain that, left to its own devices, this accumulated power/capital would have nothing better to do than create other forms and instruments of generating more and more capital but without generating outward wealth, as it has happened in the US for quite a while now.
Maybe we have to go back to bartering. 
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: November 25 2013 at 08:16 |
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Hm, well can you explain a bit about it? I know of the concept, but not quite sure how it relates to your point.
As for big government, well tough to disagree it's too big today. I feel it's too big in all the wrong places, but in terms of economics...the 1920s and 80s (really 90s) on were deregulation of finance, and I think perhaps that is the issue.
Like I said, it may not be that capitalism itself, as a structure, is the problem, but that finance will grow out of hand if unchecked and lead to many negative results. Gov is part of the problem as they favor that sector, but it could also be argued that being influenced solely by $$$, as finance grows, it will lead to the gov favoring it more by default.
Needless to say I don't believe in Austrian theory. After my flirtation, I see some validity to the core of the theory (such as CBs tinkering leading to worse results, and too low rates clearly can fuel bubbles) but there's a whole lot of it I don't see translating to reality. Especially some of their implications
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: November 25 2013 at 07:56 |
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Yeah, gotta love it. The prisons are clogged thanks to drug users, large amount of which are for possession and often minor, that keep getting thrown back in.
Rights of all types of people have been violated, science ignored, tons of money spent...
All so drugs can still be readily available
 War on Drugs has really gone well eh?
While I'm not too big on looking at just life expectancy (esp since it depends on so many factors) the real striking part is of course the $$ we spend on healthcare compared to our evil, commie socialized friends. And to think the US uses healthcare less than the OECD average, results are more or less the same, and we have however many unnecessary deaths annually due to lack of available healthcare plus bankruptcies due to medical treatment. Pretty damn sad indeed.
And why I get mad when some of our friends in other countries rage how America is the wealthiest country on Earth. What does it matter when it all is owned by a few percent of the population?? So many can't even access a basic need
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 16:24 |
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Though charts don't really explain much, this one seems pretty useful and straightforward... and SAD.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 14:01 |
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Fantastic article. Couldn't agree more with basically everything.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 13:45 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 12:24 |
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http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/01/30/120130crat_atlarge_gopnik?currentPage=1
article on prisons and the drug war
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 11:20 |
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Of course. Let's not forget that while cocaine and its relatives come from South America via Mexico, Opium derivatives come from the Middle East. I read somewhere that now that the US is retiring Opium poppy production in Afghanistan is increasing at a high rate. Another triumph of the policy of semi-covert-imperialism of the US. One always tends to say "Oh it is a failed policy but it started with good intentions." I wonder if it's true. I wonder if Nixon and Reagan and those who really furthered this "war" ever really thought on solving addiction and reducing drug's impact out of any human or even religious consideration. They wanted control, they wanted more power, they wanted to ensure that the entire industry surrounding illegal drugs is under their control and not somebody else's, they pretended to look moral by depriving people of a choice, they wanted to jail as many black Americans as possible... The war on drugs is racist, fascist, imperialist, and it may qualify as one of the true real conspiracies of our time.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 10:22 |
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After 1920s, there was a huge technological leap for the world as such. Ironically, some of it at least may have been aided by the bloody wars. It is that kind of wave that will lift the US to higher rate of growth. I.e. I am not a big believer in this economic theory or that fuelling the kind of growth that either side - left or right - like to dream about. That was propelled by a series of fundamental changes to our very way of life. Yes, to that extent, maybe there is a case for govt intervening by funding research projects that businesses may deem unviable. I am not sure that there is much support for that idea from either side, Democrats or Republicans, but I could be wrong.
Edited by rogerthat - November 22 2013 at 10:23 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 10:09 |
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Totally agree. And it's not just Mexico. It's the Middle East as well. The Drug War is not a figurative war. It's a foreign policy issue as much as a domestic (okay maybe not as much but allow the hyperbole). It also has serious repercussions and not just a bunch of stoner losers not being able to smoke pot all day instead of getting a job. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 10:07 |
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Don't mean to post too much but another article I feel impelled to share. Police harassment of a convenience store in Miami.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 09:58 |
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As a retired timber cutter it does not surprise me that a rotten tree has rotten branches. The best you can hope for is to cut it down to the stump so new growth can emerge.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 09:54 |
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The casualties and victims of the worst policy in US history (the "Drug War") sadly are not limited to these cases of obvious stupidity in the law and in lawmakers. It's not limited to small time traffickers in the US. It's not limited to smugglers caught in the US. it is not limited to the millions of addicts who overdose/get jailed/die thanks to illegality, it is not limited to minorities specially targeted by the war on drugs. This disaster even expands to other countries and specifically Mexico where the idiocy of American legislators have created more of a proper war with thousands of thousands of casualties every year. But hey, why would Mr. Rich Senator in Wyoming care about thousands of deaths in some awful sounding place like Tamaulipas state, Mexico? The drug on wars is a drug on people. Nixon, Reagan and everybody who has pushed it and continued it are criminals in their own way.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 09:34 |
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I agree which is why I mentioned it being unchallenged. I don't think it can hold up. I actually don't even think that as written it's a proper statute. However, in the past these types of things have come down on the side of government where vague notions of intent are usually assumed in its favor. The expansion of eminent domain seizing and civil forfeiture. Juries tend to be easily swayed in these cases too since the public campaign to assume guilt in the case of drug offenses has been very successful. Maybe I'm not as optimistic about it being struck down as I was a few minutes ago actually.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 09:22 |
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Horrible. Though I wonder if he can succeed in court - how can the state prove he had intent to engage in drug trafficking? Since that phrase is part of the statute, it's a necessary condition for proving guilt.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 09:18 |
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Evidently Ohio has a law, which has yet to be challenged, that prohibits cars to be equipped with hidden compartments "with the intent of drug trafficking" (however that's to be measured). The first arrest was recently made.
Drug war strikes again. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 09:15 |
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I can't say that I find the argument convincing at all really. The analysis like most that come to similar results is just incomplete. It really ignores the issue of time preference most obviously which, although the school is riddled with faults, flaws, and wackjobs, is a really important contribution of austrian theory. I'm not sure how the 20s and the present era don't qualify as periods of big government. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: November 22 2013 at 07:20 |
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Of course the US is mainly a service economy now, and I think many western countries are? Sans Germany and Japan though we've already discussed how you can't export forever, as China is realizing. I've said before while I get the benefits of open trade, it does seem to be a double edged sword that can bring downsides.
What exactly is meant by saturation? It does seem reasonable to me that we all have just "maxed out", done all we can, made all we can, and now are a finance driven service economy based on internal consumption. The natural process. I guess only problem with that is, this happened before in the 1920s and the US did bounce back.
I read a book by Eric Janszen that did indeed claim we pretty much need a new new deal, maybe not in the FDR sense but that the gov needs to basically jump start things and bring the productivity jump. Hit the reset button and do it again better. IDK how realistic this is but he did claim there's plenty the US can still produce, and there's always stuff to do, so we can find a way to bring a productivity jump. Since wage cut seems unacceptable.
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"Freedom" thread or something
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JJLehto wrote: