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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
 Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:08 |
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I was being sarcastic.
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The T
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:07 |
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Damn mosquito bites are really annoying
Edited by The T - April 08 2014 at 11:07 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:07 |
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I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog.
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:04 |
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Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire?
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13397 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:04 |
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Hmmm...I suppose I should stay abreast of such developments.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 10:58 |
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I prefer Britititititish myself, there are lots of tits in Brititititititian.
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What?
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13397 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 10:53 |
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Mosh, I am typing this very slowly (so please read it slowly). Let us forget your anti-imperialist harangues and specious cinematic references. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the point. The point, Mosh, and the only point. This entire discussion hinges on your unfathomable (and bigoted) disagreement with the following statement by ...I do accept that musical developments in countries outside England would have been pivotal in the subsequent developments and directions of Prog Rock but I still believe the consensus view that it's origins are predominantly from English culture. The following authors also arrive at the same conclusion and do attempt with varying degrees of success, to explain the reasons from a cultural, social and economic perspective... If you have specific evidence that what we refer to as "Progressive Rock" did not originate in Britain in the late 60s, then provide it. That's it. No socialist babble. No revisionist worldview prattle. No mind-numbing flights of film fantasy.
It is baseless statements like this that annoy me. No one is closing avenues of cultural creativity. No one is saying that those original British prog bands did not have influences from everyone from Rachmaninoff to Bach to Miles Davis to Roland Kirk. But influences are different than the actual creation of prog rock by the Brits. So give credit where credit is due, Mosh. Come on, you can do it. You won't lose your membership card to the International Socialist Organization.
Perhaps it is mixed up in your hallucinatory head, Mosh, particularly because of all the electro-shock treatments. But for the rest of us who can actually follow along with a discussion, it is pretty cut and dry. And it is "British". B-R-I-T-I-S-H. From the word "Britain". Unless you are using Ranulph Higden's Polychronicon for a little light reading and are speaking in a Middle-English dialect from the 14th century, but even then it would be Brittische.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 08:42 |
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Again, the point is, and you still don't see it, that both of these countries were much more developed in the media, specially radio and television, which helped dictate that there was music in America and England, but in Africa there was no music. And later, the islands brought you reggae, which has been there for 500 years! Go see the film "Cinema Paradiso" to get a slight idea of how different it was!
It's the educational side that is being ignored and you are upset at me for saying it.
And for the record I was not kicked out, and there is a reason why a dad made it in the literary world, and many others don't. It isn't just luck. It's the quality of the work and creativity around it. I can honestly say, that, sadly, even in a thread like this, some folks are trying hard to close down the avenues of creativity and cultural heritages as invalid creative instincts.
It is all way too mixed up for anyone to make sense of. But in the meantime, the Brittish and the Americans owned the world. Oh well 450 years ago it was the Portuguese and the Spanish ... my oh my, how they have fallen! Edited by moshkito - April 08 2014 at 09:00 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 08:26 |
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I would say this is only 50% right!
Structure, is, quite often, something that we can discern AFTERWARDS. Not everyone composes ahead of time. You might have a small detail or something you want to play, but many times you don't know what it will bring until after you play it.
Krautrock, and a lot of the improvisational music that came to be known as psychedelic (for example) was in many ways music where the folks were too stoned to have it recorded or even produced. (Sometimes, not always!) Take this with some milk and sugar please! It's a bit of a joke, but it tells you that when you are in it, for the "experience", you would not be thinking about recording it.
This was what made the really early Grateful Dead recordings so valuable. The amazing endless jams in the 5 or 6 hour concerts. Most of which became a sort of imprint for a lot of the stuff done later. Other influences, for example would be Guru Guru's 3rd album, which is total Jimi Hendrix, as was a lot of their earlier stuff with Ax G.
It's not "pre-defined music", thus, how can you explain a "structure"?
There might be a moment or two, or sound, or something that they are going to play around (try LSD March!) and the rest is wide open, and the structure comes as it comes and people adjust to whatever they know and can do. READ Helmut Hattler's interview at PA ... "think of something ... play it!" ... when they were stuck! You could say that they might have played the easiest thing they know?
I'm not sure that you are giving musicians credit for being able to improvise and create something that is not "composed". It's like saying that Keith Jarrett is f**king insane ... how can he remember it all before he sits at the piano for 30 minutes and such?
We're not giving credit for the fact that recording has shown us something that "composition" and "music" didn't have before, (I suppose you could say that 100 years ago, any "composer" would have written it down, but if you play an instrument, there are times when you don't know what you played ... it just came out! Now you can sit and break it down. 100 years ago you couldn't as well as today!
See how recording has changed music? We're not allowing it to "develop" because we keep insisting on structure, when we don't even know what we might be doing while experimenting. And all those Kraftwerk, and this and that were just that!
Edited by moshkito - April 08 2014 at 08:54 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 08 2014 at 00:14 |
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IMO this is a great example of a well structured and yet modern, contemporary progressive rock epic; the song entitled Parallel Timeline is released just three days ago by the German prog rock trio (the members are from Dortmund, Cologne and Munich) ELIZABETH THE LAST ; this band did do two great singles (both epic) and, perhaps apart from the band's name, their music has nothing to do with the British progressive rock movement (scene) in late 60s/early 70s:
http://elizabeththelast.bandcamp.com/album/parallel-timeline (name your price)
 Edited by Svetonio - April 08 2014 at 00:22 |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13397 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 21:53 |
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Kipling called them "Fuzzy Wuzzies", if I recall. Not that it has anything at all to do with the conversation. If you care so much for the downtrodden 3rd World, perhaps you should take some of the Leon Trotsky memorial silver spoons you've been eating off of and give them to the poor. We are talking about progressive rock, yes? I would suggest it was primarily a British invention, just as blues, R&B and jazz were American inventions (African-American, to be precise). Rock and Roll was originally an American invention absconded by the Brits, who had spent most of the early 60s venerating Black American blues and R&B performers, diversified by the late 60s and infused the Western European classical music tradition (and a bit of jazz) into the rock mix and...voila! Prog. The Brits released the most relevant, highest selling and most influential prog albums WORLDWIDE. It is not even debatable. Everyone else followed along until the next shiny toy came along: punk (again, an American/Brit amalgamation, with a bit of Jamaican seasoning). Simplistic, I know. But I am dealing with simpletons. If you would like to somehow rewrite history with the typical revisionist claptrap, I'd love to hear of the Czechoslovakian band who in 1965 put Bo Diddley compositions into sonata form and released the stellar Prog in Prague: What Bo Don't Know. A travesty it only sold 5 albums before the band went back to the coal mines. And personally, I don't give a damn about Argentinian drummers, Australian tape players, or African guitarists (except for the great Ali Farka Toure, who had absolutely nothing to do with prog rock whatsoever), because they are not relevant to what we've been talking about. Sorry if that hurts your Third World Patricianly sensibilities, but what you are saying is plain silly and completely out of context.
Be careful, Mosh, you've already been kicked off of 3 continents -- there are only a couple decent ones left! But it is not a matter of "xenophobic ethnocentrism", it is you who are incapable of looking past your obvious anti-American/anti-British (yes, "British" has only one damn 't') biases and prejudices and giving credit where credit is due. |
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 21:36 |
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I bought my copy of the Foxtrot when I was 13, that was a long time ago, and no one is convinced me that the Supper's Ready is one song. Always that Supper's Ready sounds to me like a half of a concept album or an album within the album. I mean, if Supper's Ready is one song, then Tommy (original 1969 album) is "one song" too. I'm not a musician, even I have never held an instrument in my hands, so my opinion about a song structure is not valid one, but for me this is an example of a well structured progressive rock epic although it is an instrumental, and allhough it has nothing to do with the British progressive rock movement (scene).. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:21 |
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Good post. Structure is only as good as the execution. So answering the OP for the first time in the thread
 I don't have a particular favourite structure for prog. It is purely contextual. |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:20 |
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The episodic nature of long songs like Supper's ready don't appeal to me when the tracks are so long. I can take Can-utility and the Coastliners episodic nature but a 20-minute incoherent Frankenstein song is too much. Maybe my classically-grown mind is guilty for that.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:19 |
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009 Location: Coolwood Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:13 |
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Some of my views on the original question: Structure in music is only a means to facilitate a musician's vision, as structure in a building is only a means to facilitate an architects vision. There are many practical considerations that if not accounted for, will not result in a successful realization or even a useful end product. If the vision is radical, new techniques must be invented, if not, old techniques can be used in new ways. History is filled with stories of those whose visions exceeded conventions. The new, the avant-garde, is, like everything else, built upon that which came before. Even a rejection of a style or structure is influenced by that style or structure. New does not always mean better. Neither does old. There are many ways to progress, and there are many ways to innovate.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:44 |
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Guilty as charged. However, I did not equate nihilism to heavy/aggressive music. Is there a profession for people who do not read carefully? I said, "It would be like saying Red is too heavy/aggressive to be prog." Now those albums do have some of the nihilistic qualities of punk in places and Fripp went on to sympathise with the punk movement and embrace the DIY ethic to some extent. Red is far removed from the staidness of AC DC; if I used specific albums to make a parallel than I must have had a specific point in mind, no? Being that in today's humbler times, many prog albums are in fact self produced and even funded by fans for want of label support, it is actually not as incompatible as you appear to believe. I don't think prog is necessarily all that sophisticated in the larger scheme of things (ok some of it but there's plenty that isn't) but that's a different discussion.
Edited by rogerthat - April 07 2014 at 10:45 |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:32 |
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Is xenophobic ethnocentrism a kind of Spinal Tap turn it up to 11 version 0f ethnocentrism? |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:08 |
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Not even a sitter, perhaps nihilism was a bad choice for an initiate but I just meant that the sophistication or perhaps esoteric nature of Prog was anathema to the VU i.e not dissimilar to the ethos that if you have a pulse you can do this DIY aesthetic of Punk. Do you honestly equate visceral/confrontational to heavy'/aggressive as if someone as dolefully conformist like say ACDC embodies the former? Keith Emerson adores the work of Alberto Ginastera but certainly ain't an avant garde composer. I'm starting to suspect you are an accountant? Prove me wrong... |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:06 |
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Does it really? How very inflammatory.
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Prog Song Structure
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Dean wrote:
