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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18459 |
 Posted: November 28 2014 at 15:48 |
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No one!
Water under the bridge!
And you are less interested in the subject line rather than be incoherent and change the subject?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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TradeMark0
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 109 |
Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:23 |
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"dad prog"? Is that a new prog sub genre like dark prog?
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'PiphanyRambler
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2014 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 120 |
Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:34 |
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Well, I've surely gone OT, but I don't understand how that post of yours I quoted is related to this thread either. Why would you shut out the uneducated, as you wrote? Why not to teach them instead? If someone doesn't know what's dark and you know, then show them (just an example of course, it could be applied to anything). It would bring to more interesting discussions than just leaving out those who are not knowledgeable enough.
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Angelo
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:39 |
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Gentlemen, take it outside please. Let's keep this one on-topic....
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams Joined: October 22 2005 Location: The Idiocracy Status: Offline Points: 5484 |
Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:54 |
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Coherence in an album is entirely subjective to the listener. The album represents a vision of the artist's work. Sometimes it is one person's vision, sometimes an entire band, sometimes the producer or engineer is part of it as well, and sometimes even the record company executives.
And what sounds cohesive to one listener may be quite the opposite to another. For example, many have lamented the honkytonk tracks on ELP albums. They say that they don't fit in with the depth of the heavy tracks, or the beauty of the Greg Lake ballads. To me, they serve as a pleasant diversion. On "Brain Salad Surgery", side one starts off very heavy, gets wilder, then goes very light, and suddenly offers "Benny The Bouncer", a humorous little piece that gives you a breather before diving into the magnum opus "Karn Evil 9". It works. Perfectly. To me. But maybe no for others.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24439 |
Posted: November 28 2014 at 17:03 |
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In my view, eclecticism (i.e. what some people would see as lack of coherence) is definitely a positive in an album, especially when progressive rock/music is concerned. Besides Evolver's excellent reference to ELP, I think of King Crimson's "I Talk to the Wind", whose gentle, almost light-hearted mood contrasts sharply with the intensity of the other tracks, but at the same time complements them and does not feel out of place. There is an indefinable something that makes albums like In the Court of the Crimson King, Selling England by the Pound or Brain Salad Surgery coherent, and much more successful in terms of overall structure than many albums whose coherence is overt.
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Stereolab
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 22 2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 126 |
Posted: November 28 2014 at 18:24 |
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Eclecticism works, except when it doesn't. For example, I find Poseidon to be deeply flawed in its incoherence. The great tracks are pushed around by oddities that sound nothing like them or each other, and that just don't have any value to me artistically or otherwise. But not to pick on KC, I think they pull off the difficult art of seamless eclecticism well in some of their other albums, and they remain one of my absolute favorite prog bands.
I also have no qualms about gleefully chopping up an album to make it listenable to me, introducing coherence where it didn't exist before. Who says we have to be slaves to the artists' vision? They had their say, we paid them for it, now I'm going to have my own say.
Edited by Stereolab - November 28 2014 at 18:25 |
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 00:01 |
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You are indeed consistent. I don't know who you are addressing, but since your post follows mine, I guess I'll tackle a response. There are some artists who are not at all self reflective, have no idea how they do what they do and don't care. I have no problem with that. There are also some artists who are very self-reflective and deliberate meticulously upon what they do. Would you please quit acting like they don't exist. It's entirely possible to be self-reflective without losing spontaneity and one's personality. I might also add that every post I recall has acknowledged the vagueness of the idea of coherence, so I don't see any artist is being locked down by anything said here and we are certainly not trying to do any such thing in the first place. Personally I find this thread fascinating and enjoy hearing other's thoughts about it. |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5160 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 01:45 |
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It's a very interesting topic and one for which I don't have really an answer. Practically all Queen albums from Sheer Heart Attack up to Jazz might be considered incoherent in the sense that they contain such a wide variety of stuff. Can you get more different songs mixed together than Sheer Heart Attack, All Dead, Sleeping On the Sidewalk, It's Late, My Melancholy Blues etc? And yet they have never stroke me as incoherent albums and I have never heard them being criticized for that, A Night At The Opera is almost unanimously considered a masterpiece album.
They are 'individual songs' albums, but I wonder if had they put the songs in a different sequence, would they work just the same? Is it simply enough that every song be good on its own? I think that in a 'songs album', deciding the songs order can change the way an album feels. On the other hand, coming back to the Corvus Stone albums, every time I listen again to any of them, I can't help a sense of incoherence and lack of collective meaning (sorry Colin!). Why does it happen and not with most Queen albums (for example), do not ask me.
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 02:49 |
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Probably, The Beatles White album would never have been accepted in this dane prog age
I love that album, except number 9 grrrrrr that track one listen, just a bit and it stays stuck with me for days, arghhh bah! In my head, the voices... number 9, nonstop playing over and over again   That did not deter me from thinking you are a very nice, sincere and sweet person at all. Another Sorry, I forgot to quote Gerinski above  I do love him I must add, even if our moozik tastes are not quite parallel, I do like him a lot.  very much infact! hugs to all Edited by Kati - November 29 2014 at 02:58 |
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 03:03 |
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Yes, I feel the same about Nr 9 As for the question of the OP: Funny, I couldn't find an example of an incoherent album. Eclectic, yes, but most most albums that I know (albums that I like, albums that I hate and albums that I'm indifferent to), I experience them still as having one core, a unifying theme. For me the most incoherent sounding albums are at the same time some of the best loved in the rock world: the Beatles' White Album and Neil Young's Harvest. Bottom line: incoherence doesn't play a significant role in my personal musical experience. Good question for a thread, though, I never was consciously aware of that.
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TradeMark0
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 109 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 03:55 |
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Well it might depend on what definition of incoherent we're using. It can mean confusing or incomprehensible or it can just mean inconstant. I don't want to judge albums on the basis of consistency unless were talking about how consistently "good" the album is. Consistent albums can sound dull and repetitive and inconsistent albums can sound random and disjointed, but what really matters is how the music is executed. If we are using the other definition we have to realize the what might be incomprehensible to one person can be be understood by another, so we cant just apply it to anything that seems to complicated.Someone else mentioned RIO and avant bands and I don't find those bands incomprehensible because I understand exactly what they're trying to do with their music even if it is complicated. I had trouble understanding what Corvus Stone were trying to do on Corvus Stone II both musically and conceptually, and it was much less complicated.
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Angelo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 05:50 |
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Nr 9!!!! |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 07:20 |
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Go Pedro Go!!!  A rant is a beautiful thing to admire.I tend to agree with you btw. Coherence in prog?... might as well start looking for dancing girls and songs about crusing in your 5.0 with my ragtop down so your hair can blow. Those albums have coherence and a lack of variety and are easily considered coherent. I've often read 'lack of cohernce' in prog reviews and it is a red flag the reviewer is likely talking out their ass and trying to find some reason to justify simply not liking the album. How do you argue with someone saying the album isn't coherent. Edited by micky - November 29 2014 at 07:22 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 07:45 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5160 |
Posted: November 29 2014 at 19:02 |
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 Kati watch your words or I will book a trip to South-Africa (or is it Mozambique now?). A portuguese and a spanish, both of them speaking also dutch, both of them expatriate to other countries than their own, and both of them liking Prog, with tastes perhaps not parallel but maybe complementary..... could be a match ! Now seriously, you are a lovely person too (and I love your artwork !). The biggest and sweetest hugger I know besides my ex-dog Gaston .  BTW Nr 9 is indeed a hard nut, I was not a big fan of Good Night either so in the times of vinyl and turntables, I often lifted the needle arm after Cry Baby Cry.
Edited by Gerinski - November 29 2014 at 20:53 |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: November 30 2014 at 00:36 |
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Trademark, I see in regards to every single
comment you made, you have great difficulty with this Corvus Srone album/band.
Try to listen to every song in the album as one instead as being a concept.
This band utilizes, enjoy playing tunes with overflowing layers to the finest
detail on each individual track. Their focus is mostly treating every single
track as if it’s the only song/album/single etc, they enjoy and bring the best
they can on each individual song. Not one song is similar to the other. They
have 8 singers on this album, two songs are sang in Finish, one song is in
English and Spanish J This
alone is enough for critique, they take risks yes but they do not see it that
way, they clearly have fun, enjoy what they do, don’t take things too seriously
however seriously enough as musicians trying their best to produce something to
the best they can meanwhile also covering the costs themselves to produce cd’s
etc without any funding. I adore this
music so much however I absolutely also respect others people’s opinion and personal
preferences who crave and have a different mindset compared to me. Very hard to suggest a song for you to listen, I am going to risk even more by suggesting you listen to a song that you probably won’t even understand the lyrics hihihi and here it is: http://mrrcorvusstone.bandcamp.com/track/camelus-bactrianus-tuolla-tuonnempana hugs |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: November 30 2014 at 00:47 |
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Awwww oh awwww Grezinski, awww a beautiful buddy you have there on that picture with the happiest cutest smiling face too!  This picture speaks volume, you both look amazing here, you look hot and fluffy brings out so much character awww so cute! This picture could be a great commercial, it's a dream perfect pic for this too, lovely heartwarming picture. I can clearly see the love between you both  |
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 30072 |
Posted: November 30 2014 at 03:18 |
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I wonder if they went for the full on snog
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18459 |
Posted: November 30 2014 at 10:15 |
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This is so true ... but the problem is that some of the folks, even posting here, don't believe that it is an art, and that the "writer" has to conform to the rules of Gideon, and the Devil, and Neptune! It's embarrassing! This is why I do not talk about Genesis as "progressive". I only talk about Genesis and any other group as "music" and a "composer". Their complete history of music, or their lifetime, makes them a great body of work for the whole century, regardless of Peter being there or not. It's great music, regardless, though some of the later stuff might not be my "favorite". I tend to not have "favorites" and I stay away from teh top ten game all the way! And these folks don't understand, or believe, that "artists" have a lifetime, and that they have a right to do as they please ... and if you don't like it ... too bad! I can't believe how these guys are trying so hard to LIMIT what was the freedom that we had, and are trying to dumb it down to crap! And they still don't know Picasso had at least 3 major periods, and they were far more different than Dream Theater's! THERE, I said it! It's the knowledge of the arts, that hurts here ... too many of the folks here can only think of history as that of the stuff they have heard and know. And the world has had millions of years and more music, than you and I and a trillion people can ever imagine!
I'm OK with it not working for others, as long as the ability to understand and see the history of the arts and the music is involved. When the "history", is just 5 songs, the whole thing is out of line and perspective! And the depth of the perspective is what helped create "progressive" and "prog", but these folks can't admit that they have no idea what that means! It's OK to be naive, and you can learn at that point. But being stupid and not wanting to hear out the history, which is bigger than them and I, is not good at all! |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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What is that to you - coherence?
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'PiphanyRambler wrote: