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Topic ClosedCan the early 70s prog sound be cloned nowadays?

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 11:20
There's a quote from an old Greek philosopher - Heraclitus - who said 

"You cannot step into the same river twice". 

So, basically, unless I forget everything I've heard before I sit down, crack the knuckles and start playing....... no. You can't exactly recreate the period. Playing music is subliminal, you create melodies based on a back catalogue of thoughts, ideas, styles..... I'd have to forget the back catalogue and live through the 70's again. 

I couldn't cope with the trousers again, frankly. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 11:11
I listen a lot to Triskaidekaphobic/Le Poison Qui Rend Fou by Present. I often hear the intro to "Promenade Au Fond D'un Canal" as a very original darkscape played on bass guitar, cymbals, and keys. Other times I am reminded a bit too much of the recording having John Wetton on bass, Bruford accenting the cymbals, and maybe what's being played on the keyboard is thought to be played by Robert Fripp on guitar. Why would that be? The answer is that the element of surprise is no longer there. The obvious evidence that Wetton, Bruford, and Fripp are there or because they came up with the idea to improvise/compose in order to create this particular vibe of sound in the first place.
 
The music then continues to expand into a entire new section of a different musical direction based very much off the style that Frank Zappa often produced in his instrumental compositions of magnificent complexity and instrumental storytelling ..which is a very abstract process of thinking on behalf of the composer. We're not talking about Stravinsky and his style and approach to composition specifically and putting all our eggs in that basket for the sake of worshipping one of the masters. This is different. This was originally Zappa himself taking the influences of such composers and adapting it to "Rock Music". He was the person to do it and afterwards...it influenced many Rio bands to expand upon the idea itself and release some fine music. Univers Zero and Art Zoyd have written several instrumental pieces containing the Zappa formula, yet they manage to produce solid work of their own. Present and National Health are successful in these areas. In the beginning, it was a cool idea and people like Alan Gowen and Dave Stewart brilliantly composed the most adventurous music in the world, but as time progressed on, too many artists were attempting to do it and the originality that was suppose to further arrive from it, after Zappa, Gowen, and others, was now being cloned and sounding redundant.
 
 
Simon Jeffes from Penguin Café Orchestra composed very hypnotic surreal avant-garde pieces. One piece in particular titled "Milk" is more keen to subside to The Residents approach in music composition...which is not all about someone pushing a button on a keyboard most of the time, but instead focuses on the essence of Avant-Garde structures. They were both choosing to approach music from an angle that Frank Zappa would pursue, but also trying to carry on a form of music that should be approached by the musician/composer thinking for themselves. Everything became too cloned and bands were not as daring to experiment with the formula. This occurred in the 80's when several Avant or what was defined as Rio, type bands began sounding too predictable. It was difficult to accept their own style because it revolved around the sole emulation of note patterns and structure that derived from the works of the great Keith Emerson. Keith Emerson was VERY responsible for a particular structure that  influenced  Rio. Many of his complex note patterns were created years  before Brain Salad Surgery had been released. He was much more influential to Rio in that area than many of the keyboardists of his time...like Rick Wakeman, Rod Argent, and David Greenslade. I've heard a definite influence over bands like Univers Zero and a prime example would be the track "Combat", however there are many other pieces. Daniel Denis likes Jimi Hendrix. Think about it. It has to do with originality. You can play complex and melodic, but if it doesn't have enough  originality, what good is it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 09:56
Originally posted by paragraph7 paragraph7 wrote:

And it's a thin line I guess, as the Mellotron for example is so imbedded into the prog scene, that even if one would use it to record some kind of weird circus schlager music, someone still might call it imitation of King Crimson LOL
 
That is something most people can't avoid noticing, but why can't musicians use the mellotron differently by changing the typical chord structures that have been applied in the 70's WHEN using it? That within itself seems questionable. If you're recording a progressive piece, why is it SO necessary to copy those same passages that we all heard played on the mellotron in the 70's?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 09:45
^I love listening to The Flaming Lips and Tame Impala. But they're not Prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 09:40
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

No as it would be nothing but imitation and that wears thin very quickly as you yourself have observed. Bands can try pay homage to their heroes  by using mellotrons and the like but it carries a heavy price.
 
Steve...it already is an imitation. Have you taken up an instrument to observe that yourself?
 
A bit off the subject but not quite. I wish Wilson would try to pay homage to someone with sensitivity and feelings. But that's asking a lot from him.
 
To answer your inquiry, Yes I have.
 
And there's difference between inspiration and imitation. I'm surprised that a'"real" musician like yourself hasn't come to understand that.
 
I've come to appreciate Prog Rock because of it's innovation, not it's imitation. That's why I'm here.
 
Why are you?
 
It's because on my end of the stick, I see this so called inspiration as an imitation. I definitely don't desire to hear someone who is supposedly inspired ..when it is clear to me that they are imitating. I don't believe that a majority of the Prog community realizes the difference.
 
see - I don't mind a well done homage by someone who was in love with the same thing as I was - shared nostalgia (I'm beyond giving a s%*$  that nostalgia gets a negative knee jerk reaction around here)
 
It's like Tarantino movies - the guy is able to reproduce the gritty 70's films I love - with his own twist. Some people cry 'rip off' where I call 'sour grapes'.    I watch these and feel like I've travelled back in time to a comfort zone I enjoy visiting occasionally.
 
I'd feel the same way about a band who loved and WAS INSPIRED by the same things that shaped my musical interests enough to do their take on it.  It would have to sound authentic but with their own twist.
 
I'd dig that very much.
 
this doesn't mean I don't want anything else - new or otherwise .. it's just a fun place to visit.


Edited by Walton Street - February 19 2015 at 09:43
"I know one thing: that I know nothing"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 09:36
And it's a thin line I guess, as the Mellotron for example is so imbedded into the prog scene, that even if one would use it to record some kind of weird circus schlager music, someone still might call it imitation of King Crimson LOL
What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 09:33
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

No as it would be nothing but imitation and that wears thin very quickly as you yourself have observed. Bands can try pay homage to their heroes  by using mellotrons and the like but it carries a heavy price.
 
Steve...it already is an imitation. Have you taken up an instrument to observe that yourself?
 
A bit off the subject but not quite. I wish Wilson would try to pay homage to someone with sensitivity and feelings. But that's asking a lot from him.
 
To answer your inquiry, Yes I have.
 
And there's difference between inspiration and imitation. I'm surprised that a'"real" musician like yourself hasn't come to understand that.
 
I've come to appreciate Prog Rock because of it's innovation, not it's imitation. That's why I'm here.
 
Why are you?
 
It's because on my end of the stick, I see this so called inspiration as an imitation. I definitely don't desire to hear someone who is supposedly inspired ..when it is clear to me that they are imitating. I don't believe that a majority of the Prog community realizes the difference.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 09:05
Originally posted by paganinio paganinio wrote:

Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

Another one of the same tread, about old v new prog.
Can there be an opinion not allready spoken !
 
 


This one doesn't have that "versus" vibe going on because the OP specifically asked for old prog.  There isn't even any new prog involved! Tongue
 
You must be joking :
Quote the OP :
While I love Opeth's Pale Communion, every time I listen to it I get this nagging feeling of "Oh Genesis guitars!",
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 08:19
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

No as it would be nothing but imitation and that wears thin very quickly as you yourself have observed. Bands can try pay homage to their heroes  by using mellotrons and the like but it carries a heavy price.
 
Steve...it already is an imitation. Have you taken up an instrument to observe that yourself?
 
A bit off the subject but not quite. I wish Wilson would try to pay homage to someone with sensitivity and feelings. But that's asking a lot from him.
 
To answer your inquiry, Yes I have.
 
And there's difference between inspiration and imitation. I'm surprised that a'"real" musician like yourself hasn't come to understand that.
 
I've come to appreciate Prog Rock because of it's innovation, not it's imitation. That's why I'm here.
 
Why are you?


Edited by SteveG - February 19 2015 at 09:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 08:19
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Why should that sound be cloned? Have albums of 70's bands and artists all of a sudden disappeared from the market? Confused
Clap Nice one, Raff. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 07:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

No as it would be nothing but imitation and that wears thin very quickly as you yourself have observed. Bands can try pay homage to their heroes  by using mellotrons and the like but it carries a heavy price.
 
Steve...it already is an imitation. Have you taken up an instrument to observe that yourself?
 
A bit off the subject but not quite. I wish Wilson would try to pay homage to someone with sensitivity and feelings. But that's asking a lot from him.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 07:27
Originally posted by paragraph7 paragraph7 wrote:

Here's what I mean: there have been many attempts by several "Neo-prog" or other artists to capture the same sort of essence which was included in the early records of King Crimson and Genesis and so on. Yet it has felt to me that such efforts have been extremely hit and miss; they've written songs with a similar song structure, yes, used Mellotron, the Hammond Organ etc, but more often than not the result actually feels like a modernized homage/tribute to the classics rather than a personal and artistic work.
I totally agree. Why on earth several members of this website do not understand that is mind boggling to me. Perhaps they don't actually see it happening or they are personally offended. It's a fact though and you have every right to express the view. A percentage of members get tired of discussing this because they don't agree with it and are annoyed.
 
 
And it's actually really easy to understand why, for if the aim, of say Steven Wilson, is to make a record which clearly is heavily influenced by the classics, then the record has also to be on par with said classics, or else the house of cards falls apart. It becomes a hollow copy of the masterpiece it is trying to be. While the musicianship and songwriting of such artists can be extremely acknowledgable, the product at the end fails to deliver something unique, which made the classics so good to begin with. While I love Opeth's Pale Communion, every time I listen to it I get this nagging feeling of "Oh Genesis guitars!", or "Oh KC intro!" or just "oh Goblin, as in GOBLIN" Shocked

What is your take on this? There are bands like Änglagård and Anekdoten that, in my opinion, are able to catch that 70's classic sound a bit better, but I'm not entirely sure. They were mostly active in the 90s, when digitalized audio engineering was still at its baby steps, maybe that had something to do with it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 07:18
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

There is a vsti soft synth available to replicate every conceivable piece of hardware available to musicians in the early 70's and beyond. Technology has made cloning texture a piece of piss but there is no computer plug-in that provides substance on demand.


Yup, and the plugin Mellotrons, such as Redtron, sound pretty authentic too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 07:06
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Why should that sound be cloned? Have albums of 70's bands and artists all of a sudden disappeared from the market? Confused


From the comments here it's easy to see that it shouldn't. But there are quite many artists who do it any way. The fun in this thread could be about finding bands such as Dark Elf mentioned, Big Big Train, who do prog in a way that's not only a rip off of the past (if that's true, I haven't listened to them myself).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 07:04
There is a vsti soft synth available to replicate every conceivable piece of hardware available to musicians in the early 70's and beyond. Technology has made cloning texture a piece of piss but there is no computer plug-in that provides substance on demand.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 06:58
Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

Another one of the same tread, about old v new prog.
Can there be an opinion not allready spoken !
 
 


This one doesn't have that "versus" vibe going on because the OP specifically asked for old prog.  There isn't even any new prog involved! Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 06:39
Why should that sound be cloned? Have albums of 70's bands and artists all of a sudden disappeared from the market? Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 03:32
Another one of the same tread, about old v new prog.
Can there be an opinion not allready spoken !
 
 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2015 at 01:48
Apocalypse in 9/8 seems to crop up all the time with Squonk a close second. But as said before they are never the real deal. Its one of the reasons I don't rate IQ's Dark Matter album as highly as some others and I do count myself as an IQ fan. Harvest Of Souls was just too close in structure to Suppers Ready for comfort for me. However what it just doesn't have is the 'feel' of that times and that is a very difficult thing to achieve. Astra on the other hand have managed to get the feel of the seventies using analog equipment and recording techniques (as I understand it) but to their credit never sound like a clone of anything (more like the b*****d love child of early Floyd and Sabbath if anything).

Edited by richardh - February 19 2015 at 01:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2015 at 23:27
I think you got to go back to what Genesis, Yes, or King Crimson were listening to.  
For example...
If you want to sound like Steve Howe,  then listen and play a bunch of Wes Montgomery.   Staying with the Yes theme, you would want to study Igor Stravinsky et cetera, et cetera.
 You also need multiple composers who are massively talented.   The end result could be a masterpiece that would stand beside Yes, but not sound like Yes.    Unless you're foolish enough to hire a singer who sounds like Jon Anderson!    
 
Zeppelin and  The Rolling Stones were influenced by many of the same American Blues artists, yet Zeppelin and Stones sound completely different.   The 80's were replete with Zeppelin want-to-be's, yet all paled in comparison to the legendary Led Zeppelin.     Go back to the source...The original source. Cool
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