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Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
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Points: 10213
Posted: July 06 2015 at 08:47
SteveG wrote:
Ok, time for the final debate. You know what the age old question is, so let's settle it and try have some fun.
In his 2010 book, Electric Eden, author Rob Young argues that Strawberry Fields Forever by the Beatles defined what was the archetypal British Psychedelic rock song, based on the fact that it was constructed from two out of tune (by a semi tone) songs that were patched together in the studio, utilized a ground breaking new approach to pop songs with orchestration by utilizing a mellotron, used backwards recorded, as well as other, tape effects. All combined with "arty" lyrics.
For the sake of argument, I will agree with Young, and further propose that Strawberry Fields was also the archetypal Prog Rock song and gave recording artists the expanded pallet to compose and record the Progressive Rock that flourished in the late sixties and took off in the early seventies.
Every member of PA is a Prog expert, to some extent, so please chime in, and let's keep it civil (and fun.)
I disagree with the author who said that Strawberry Fields Forever was "archetipycal British Psychedelic Rock song". Archetypical English psychedelia, called "Freakbeat" at that time, what was actually a counterpart of U.S. garage psychedelia, wasn't 'pastoral' at all. Freakbeat was based on agressive R&B mods heritage. And that strong pastoral element mixed with 'daydream' atmosphere, along with 'tron, arty lyrics and that great studio work, is what made Strawberry Fields Forever the first song of English Symphonic rock i.e. the first British progressive rock song ever; e.g. those two songs (both from 1967) are archetypical British psychedelic rock i.e. Freakbeat, and everybody who's not deaf will be able to hear that drastic difference in genres between these songs and Strawberry Fields Forever :
Joined: August 02 2014
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 09:07
HackettFan wrote:
•Freak Out! was the first Prog, although with a tenuous historical connection with what occurred not long after in England. •Strawberry fields was Proto-Prog at best, also with a tenuous historical connection with what occurred not long after or concurrently in England. •Radiohead is not Prog.
This. Took the words right out of my mouth!
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Joined: August 18 2013
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 10:12
I don't think the Beatles were the "first prog band", but as Gulbamsen writes, they "paved the way", or at least, helped paving the way (there were others, too, but the Beatles were the best-known among them).
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Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 10:32
OP's Response:
Ok, I'm quite satisfied that the Beatles did not invent prog, but were it's fore runners. Remember, I proposed the StrawberryFields example for the "sakeofargument" in order to get the discussion rolling.
However, if StrawberryFields was not the archetypal Prog song of the sixties, then what song was?
Please keep in mind that archetypal refers to "a typical example of something".
Joined: August 27 2014
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 11:53
I feel that the Beatles were not really much more than a sixties boy band. They had some interesting compositions for the time, but they really never escalated more than that. Maybe sometimes praise them a little to highly for something that wasn't that amazing.
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 12:01
aglasshouse wrote:
I feel that the Beatles were not really much more than a sixties boy band. They had some interesting compositions for the time, but they really never escalated more than that. Maybe sometimes praise them a little to highly for something that wasn't that amazing.
Your addled attempt at minimization lacks all historical perspective.
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 13:49
SteveG wrote:
^Fair enough. Feel free to elaborate.
If you insist.
Young described Strawberry Fjords as being the archetypal British Psychedelic rock song and you, in playing devil's advocate , proposed that it was the archetypal prog song. The use of the definitive article before the word 'archetypal' implies the more precise meaning of 'archetypal', namely "An original model or type after which other similar things are patterned; a prototype" (archetype is derived from the Greek: arkhe meaning first and typos meaning model). This means a tad more than just"a typical example of something"'.
However, you've declared the boundary condition within which you are working by stating that 'archetypal refers to "a typical example of something"'. In this sense 'archetypal' has more or less the same meaning as 'quintessential'... (i.e., it doesn't have to be the first), so now all people need to do is list their favourite Prog song written any time during the decade that was the 1960s that they feel is "a typical example of Prog song" and the thread will wend its merry way.
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Joined: October 31 2006
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 14:17
PrognosticMind wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
•Freak Out! was the first Prog, although with a tenuous historical connection with what occurred not long after in England. •Strawberry fields was Proto-Prog at best, also with a tenuous historical connection with what occurred not long after or concurrently in England. •Radiohead is not Prog.
This. Took the words right out of my mouth!
I second this and I add that prog doesn't have a birthday. It evolved from something else and it didn't take a day.
If Zeuhl is prog Carl Orff deserves a place on PA more than Beatles.
They had the merit of bringing psychedelia and art rock to the ears of the pop public, but they didn't invent it.
Abbey Road is a prog album for me.
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Joined: February 02 2005
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 14:20
WeepingElf wrote:
I don't think the Beatles were the "first prog band", but as Gulbamsen writes, they "paved the way", or at least, helped paving the way (there were others, too, but the Beatles were the best-known among them).
Totally agree. IMO the Beatles reached the line between psych and prog.
Joined: July 20 2009
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 14:45
Prog didn't just happen, it was the result of many years (centuries) of musical and technological innovation....omitting the classical composers, we had:
Charlie Christian, who was the leading innovator of the lead electric guitar
Django Reinhardt, who was a leading innovator in the jazz combo format, incorporating violin
the invention of the modern solid body guitar, by Leo Fender and Les Paul
the invention of the Mellotron and synthesizer
musical studies of innovation, from the classical composers through be-bop and onwards
etc. I cannot identify any one person or group who "invented" prog, it was an inventive process that spanned a long period of time. There are probably beat composers of the 1950s who developed some amazing progressive music that has never been heard since.
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 15:11
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Fair enough. Feel free to elaborate.
If you insist.
Young described Strawberry Fjords as being the archetypal British Psychedelic rock song and you, in playing devil's advocate , proposed that it was the archetypal prog song. The use of the definitive article before the word 'archetypal' implies the more precise meaning of 'archetypal', namely "An original model or type after which other similar things are patterned; a prototype" (archetype is derived from the Greek: arkhe meaning first and typos meaning model). This means a tad more than just"a typical example of something"'.
However, you've declared the boundary condition within which you are working by stating that 'archetypal refers to "a typical example of something"'. In this sense 'archetypal' has more or less the same meaning as 'quintessential'... (i.e., it doesn't have to be the first), so now all people need to do is list their favourite Prog song written any time during the decade that was the 1960s that they feel is "a typical example of Prog song" and the thread will wend its merry way.
I felt that clarification coming on, so I will correct my meaning of 'archetypal' with the preface of the word the (in italics) as in 'the archetypal' and hence, back to the prototypical meaning. Thanks.
Btw, arkhe derived from the Greek: means origin, protos means first. (So PA will now have to change it's Proto Prog subgenre to Archeo Prog. Doh!)
Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: July 06 2015 at 16:56
No one band can be fairly credited with inventing prog. I consider them to be proggy at least. I have everything from Rubber Soul to the bitter end and like them all very much. Over the years I have come to care less about what is officially prog or not. Is the music any good is all that really matters to me.
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Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?
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SteveG wrote:
